Is gold or suasa 'better'?

[David]

Most of the items in this collection seem to be from the early and middle Classic Periods of Jawa (some a bit later) and you can find this collection in book form as Old Javanese Gold.
http://artgallery.yale.edu/publicati...ty-art-gallery
I would love to see such a collection of suasa items from Jawa or more examples of images of suasa used on Javanese and Bali keris that can help support Rumphius' assertion that it was preferred over gold. I really cannot think of too many examples that i have actually seen of suasa on Javanese or Bali keris (that is to say my idea of suasa, since Alan has stated that the 19k rose gold in in the Balinese court keris would perhaps be called suasa by an Indonesian).

[David]

Here is what Frey has to say on the Talismanic use of gold on keris. Like most writers on keris we all know that Frey has had his own problems with accuracy.
http://tinyurl.com/pqf4vfh

[David]

A Javanese keris from the late 18th century that once belonged to the Regent of Yogyakarta. The pendok is gold with green enamel inlays.
It also seems to me that the preferred material for kinatah is generally gold, not suasa.

[Maurice]

Nice kris David!

I agree about the prefered golden kinatah. And also I agree that most kerisses we know off use gold instead of suassa.
But that is not what I am trying to deny here.

A friend has a lovely Javanese keris with suassa pendok. Not much seen, but he has. And also I have seen a Javanese pedang lurus completely made of suassa instead of silver, which we normally see. This because they prefer silver over suassa? I don't think so. Suassa is much more rare in use somehow, and it is easy to say that because gold is more widespread that this was preferred over suassa.
As I can't imagine that silver is prefered above suassa also, and only know of one pedang lurus in suassa dress and lots of them in silver dresses....

Also I have seen Palembang kerisses with ivory hilt, suassa mendak/selut and also golden fittings here and there. Why not choosen for a golden mendak/selut?

Rumphius also is writing about gold in Indonesia. He writes the same you are telling, that everybody wants gold, and that they hammered it really thin to make krishilts, made from resin within and covered in a thin goldcover.
Btw he seemed not to be very fond of this gold over resin, and sees it as a falsification.

Rumphius also is telling a similar version which Alan is telling about the gold.
"Any native wants some gold in their houses, and no family was happy without having a piece of gold in their possession." But he is referring that back in those days it allready was not that much gold available as rumors were telling. Therefore they hammered it very thin, used plating etc. because it was so precious for everybody to own.
After this he is describing some gold and silver testings, and than the chapter of Suassa starts.
So he also was able to compare it with gold, and still needs te urge to mention the talismanic preference of suassa over gold (which was most wanted in the native possessions).

[A. G. Maisey]

In this matter under discussion, this is the situation as I understand it:-

The notes that G. E. Rumphius used to produce his masterwork were gathered in the 1600's and not published until the 1700's.

In this work he makes a comment based upon (at best) third or fourth hand information that infers a talismanic quality being attributed to suasa in what, at that time, was Mataram (Central Jawa).

So let us assume that it was at least rumoured that at some time, in some place suasa might have had some sort of talismanic quality attributed to it. Let us further assume that during the 1600's, in Central Jawa, suasa had a talismanic value attributed to it.

Personally, I have no problem at all with this, because in Jawa, talismanic values are attributed to just about everything under the sun (& moon & stars). Nothing exists or happens without having some sort of value being attributed to it by somebody.

However, I do have a couple of questions in respect of the comments attributed to G.E. Rumphius:-

1) are these comments on suasa sourced from a VOC journal?

2) in what published work are the reports of metallurgical examinations of suasa, sourced from the Dutch East Indies, reported?

and

3) do we know of any other historical reports that attribute talismanic qualities to suasa, in any other place in the geographic locations where suasa was produced?

[David]

Well, for me the question isn't so much as to whether or not talismanic properties were attributed to suasa in 17th or 18th century Jawa. As Alan points out, talismanic properties are attributed to just about everything, especially things considered precious such as valuable metals. What i am questioning here is the claim that suasa was preferred over gold. If it was one has to wonder why then there are so many more existing examples of the use of gold on keris than there are suasa, especially when one considers that suasa has a lower monetary value than gold. I could literally fill pages upon pages here with photographs of examples of the use of gold in this context, however the existing examples of suasa used on keris seem substantially lower. Why would this be the case if indeed suasa was a preferred metal?

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

Well, for me the question isn't so much as to whether or not talismanic properties were attributed to suasa in 17th or 18th century Jawa. As Alan points out, talismanic properties are attributed to just about everything, especially things considered precious such as valuable metals. What i am questioning here is the claim that suasa was preferred over gold. If it was one has to wonder why then there are so many more existing examples of the use of gold on keris than there are suasa, especially when one considers that suasa has a lower monetary value than gold. I could literally fill pages upon pages here with photographs of examples of the use of gold in this context, however the existing examples of suasa used on keris seem substantially lower. Why would this be the case if indeed suasa was a preferred metal?

Yes I am fully aware of that. Everything that looks nice, different etc. must be talismanic at those times (and still) in Indonesia.

I thought I answered your questions before. Gold was something everybody wanted to have, even Rumphius is explaining that allready in his very early work! Therefor you can fill pages upon pages with photographs of examples with gold in this context, as anybody wanted to have it. It was luxury property, and probably also talismanic!
But next to the small chapter of gold, he has a larger chapter of suassa, which had to be much more interesting as the gold that anybody owned!
And he stated there that suassa was preferred over gold because of the talismanic properties, not that suassa is on the same level with gold on luxury property.

Maybe it could be, that suassa was so powerfull that not everybody was able or dared to wear suassa?

PS can you show me an old source that gold was preferred to suassa from a similar age?

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In this matter under discussion, this is the situation as I understand it:-

The notes that G. E. Rumphius used to produce his masterwork were gathered in the 1600's and not published until the 1700's.

In this work he makes a comment based upon (at best) third or fourth hand information that infers a talismanic quality being attributed to suasa in what, at that time, was Mataram (Central Jawa).

So let us assume that it was at least rumoured that at some time, in some place suasa might have had some sort of talismanic quality attributed to it. Let us further assume that during the 1600's, in Central Jawa, suasa had a talismanic value attributed to it.

Personally, I have no problem at all with this, because in Jawa, talismanic values are attributed to just about everything under the sun (& moon & stars). Nothing exists or happens without having some sort of value being attributed to it by somebody.

However, I do have a couple of questions in respect of the comments attributed to G.E. Rumphius:-

1) are these comments on suasa sourced from a VOC journal?

2) in what published work are the reports of metallurgical examinations of suasa, sourced from the Dutch East Indies, reported?

and

3) do we know of any other historical reports that attribute talismanic qualities to suasa, in any other place in the geographic locations where suasa was produced?

I don't know why the information would be from third or fourth hand information? I can not find it anywhere. He visited the area himself, and lived since 1657 in Ambon, and in 1662 he travelled to the Banda area.
His work of 1661 foliosheets were shipped to the Republic with the ship "Waterland", but all got lost during a sea battle near "Bordeaux".
However, Johannes Camphuys, had during his life made copies of Rumphius work, and therefore it took so long in between to publish all the work of Rumphius.

Your questions:
1) Rumphius was working for the VOC as a military engineer, and I don't know if his work had been used in VOC journals. These are not published as far as I know, and to do some more research one need to have lots of time and also visit The Hague, were the journals are stored (as far as I know).
Also it is a kind of old dutch languague, which doesn't make it easy to read.
But it must be clear for everybody that Rumphius had the VOC mentality, and his work probably went much further as a VOC journal.

2) I have no idea. In his same work, where Rumphius is quoting about gold and silver tests. Again the VOC journals are many and one need to have lots of time to research them all, and find all information about suassa if there is any.

3) I will have to research Rumphius article more intensively.

Now to me also questions arise:
Do you have such old information written about gold, that this had been preferred over suassa considering its talismanic aspects?
Or is it for collectors assumably because more gold is found instead of suassa?
I came across a source, Rumphius, thanks to Loedjoe, that it was (and if this information is right or not can not be hunt down because of the big timespan I'm afraid).
You are asking me for more sources, which possibly is impossible to find without doing lots of research. But I didn't have found one of the same age which is telling gold had been preferred over suassa.