Candi Sukuh carving, keris mythology

[Pusaka]

"According to legend, Empu Ramadi around A.D. 230 made the first kris. Early krises were leaf-shaped and were called pasopati, paso or pisau, meaning knife, and pati, meaning deadly. Antique krises are kept as heirlooms or votive objects, and some are said to possess magic power. "

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/tr...liest-weapons/

I found the above interesting because it is also what I heard, anybody know who Empu Ramadi is. Did some google searches and he is described as the empu of the gods.

[drdavid]

Hi Pusaka
I assume you are familiar with this scholarly piece http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html
drdavid

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by drdavid

Hi Pusaka
I assume you are familiar with this scholarly piece http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html
drdavid

I quickly read it now, was surprised the image I posted above was not in it because the blade nearest the smith in the carving is very keris like.

Also is Arjuna or Bhima mentioned in the Ramayana?

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Also is Arjuna or Bhima mentioned in the Ramayana?

No, but they are major characters in the Mahabharata, including Arjuna also a major character in the Bhagavad-Gita.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Battara

No, but they are major characters in the Mahabharata, including Arjuna also a major character in the Bhagavad-Gita.

If the images at Candi Sukuh depict the ramayan then it cant be Bhima or Ajuna because they are in the mahabharata (part of which is the Bhagavad-Gita)

[A. G. Maisey]

It is probably not wise to attempt to understand the importance of Candi Sukuh by a direct reference to any of the great Hindu epics. Candi Sukuh is very special case and deserves careful attention in its own right, if we are to come to any understanding at all of the messages that are put forward in the Candi Sukuh reliefs.

The message that is contained in the stele that is under discussion here is very probably more relevant to the renewal of souls, and the connection in Javanese thought between the esoteric powers of the pande and the cycle of birth - death - re-birth.

There are several things that must never be forgotten when we set out to try to understand Sukuh.

Firstly, it was built on the outskirts of the Majapahit kingdom.

Secondly, it was built at a time when the Majapahit kingdom was already beginning to show the signs of its eventual implosion.

Thirdly, it was built in a location that in itself carries a very special significance, one that can only be understood by a person who has some understanding of the world view of the Javanese farmer, and the farmer's relationship to Mother Earth.

Fourthly, the artistic style employed in the Sukuh carvings is more closely related to Javanese indigenous art, than to the Javanese style of the Late Classical Period in Jawa.

The fifth thing that it is essential to understand, not only in respect of the Sukuh stele that began this discussion, but in respect of any attempt to understand any Javanese monumental or other message, is that what we may think we are seeing is not necessarily what the person who originated the message intended to be seen. All Javanese messages, particularly in respect of monumental messages must be approached as a riddle that may be able to be understood by somebody with the requisite level of knowledge. This "requisite knowledge" would embrace as a bare minimum the ability to interpret that which is seen in terms of the Candra Sangkala, this by itself is not sufficient, but it is a good fundamental beginning.

A good beginning to the study of Candi Sukuh is this article:-

http://cip.cornell.edu/DPubS?service...ndo/1107006615

Stanley O'Connor does not have all the answers by any means, but he does give us some insight into the problems that are faced by anybody attempting to understand the messages of Candi Sukuh.

I've said this more times than I can remember, but it is the one basic truth in the study of the keris:-

do not attempt to understand the keris by study of the keris: you will learn nothing at all that is worthwhile

if you wish to understand the keris you must study Javanese culture and society, from that foundation you may eventually come to understand a little about the keris.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The message that is contained in the stele that is under discussion here is very probably more relevant to the renewal of souls, and the connection in Javanese thought between the esoteric powers of the pande and the cycle of birth - death - re-birth.

The five pandavas are seen by some as representing a manifestation of the five elements, the five personality types in man and the five stages of life.

Indeed some schools teach that the refining of metallic ores and the forging of the keris is an inner and outer process. Much in the same way as masons use the analogy of the construction of the temple for the building of the divine man.
The empu is simultaneously refining himself as he forges the blade in the fire. The fire and forging that removes the impurity's of the blade are also purifying his inner nature. In this School of thought then the 16 types of bumi from which a keris can be forged are simultaneously inside of you and without. The inner transmutation is Alchemical and is balanced by the outer smith work.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A good beginning to the study of Candi Sukuh is this article:-

http://cip.cornell.edu/DPubS?service...ndo/1107006615

Stanley O'Connor does not have all the answers by any means, but he does give us some insight into the problems that are faced by anybody attempting to understand the messages of Candi Sukuh.

Thanks Alan, that was a very interesting article with much food for thought. Most of us who have been studying keris for some time have, of course, seen this image of the Candi Sukuh before as it is often used to trace the origins of the keris at least back as far as we can date this temple. We can look at it and say with some confidence that the keris was an accepted part of the culture at least as early as 1437. However, most of us have not had the opportunity to actually travel to this place and for the most part it is just this one photograph that we refer to, without applying it in context to the place as a whole. Out of context we might ascribe many ideas to this scene in the smithy. As you say, Mr. O'Connor does not have all the answers, but i find his line of thought very intriguing.
One thing i am feeling more and more certain about is that this relief was not meant to depict or commemorate any divine figure instructing the first empu in the creation of the first keris. Why? Firstly what we assume to be a keris (and most probably is) does not have any central significance in the sculpture. It is in the background with other weapons and tools that are all given equal prominence. The blade that the smith is holding does not appear to be a keris to me, but is more likely a pedang of some sort. At least it does not seem to have the specific features that we recognize as a keris (asymmetric blade and gonjo). So the central message of this relief is not specifically about keris at all. The thing we all identify as a keris is merely one more object on the smith's wall of finished items.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

"According to legend, Empu Ramadi around A.D. 230 made the first kris. Early krises were leaf-shaped and were called pasopati, paso or pisau, meaning knife, and pati, meaning deadly. Antique krises are kept as heirlooms or votive objects, and some are said to possess magic power. "

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/tr...liest-weapons/

I found the above interesting because it is also what I heard, anybody know who Empu Ramadi is. Did some google searches and he is described as the empu of the gods.

There is quite a bit of highly questionable information in this article regarding keris. People say a lot of things about keris. Not all of it is correct.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

There is quite a bit of highly questionable information in this article regarding keris. People say a lot of things about keris. Not all of it is correct.

Yeah but mythology or legend is not history, that the smith of gods ramayadi made the first keris is obviously mythology.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Yeah but mythology or legend is not history, that the smith of gods ramayadi made the first keris is obviously mythology.

I was more referring to many other questionable statements that are not being presented as mythology or legend in their section on keris...that curved blades first appeared around 329 AD (i can't say i am aware of any evidence that puts the blade we recognize as a keris this early, yet alone wavy blades, and why such a specific date as 329 anyway). Sarpa lumaku (walking serpent) is also just one of many different forms of the wavy blade, though it seems to be the one that the silat community have latched onto. I am also confused by their assertion that the "the pamor blade-welding technique also began to die out after the Majapahit era" (i would think quite the opposite) and of course they put forth that old legend that the keris traditionally used meteoric ore long before the only recorded discovery of such iron-bearing meteorites in Prambanan in the late 18th century.
Unfortunately it seems to me that in most cases silat schools put forth a rather skewed and limited viewpoint of the keris, falling back on legend and mythology much too much in order to better fit it into their "pantheon of deadly weapons". But culturally the keris is so much more than merely another weapon to be wielded in martial contest. The specifics of its place within Indonesian societies has indeed changed over time with the influx of different influences, but it has always been far more than a just weapon, even a magickal one imbued with a living spirit. It has connective relationship and deep symbolic meaning throughout the grand scheme of the Indonesian cultural identity.
To return to your original question, i am not sure that i personally have enough knowledge of Mahabharata to accurately answer you. However, while they certainly did place their own local flavor on Hinduism in the Mojopahit era i have always assumed that the Mahahharta told a very specific tale from Hindu mythology. So i am not sure that they would have added any scenes into the wayang to depict the forging scene from Candi Sukuh, though there may indeed be a corresponding scene already present in that epic. Of course, wayang has added items that are culturally specific to the area, so you will find keris present even though they obviously did not exist in the original Hindu epic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata

[Pusaka]

Mythology is important because in ancient times they believed that to be real history and even today in Silat schools, even according to the historians of the karaton surakarta the first age of the keris was Empu Ramadi of the Purwacarita kingdom. Official karaton surakata website below

https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...ml&prev=search

So why is this mythology important? well I believe that image I posted above has been incorrectly identified. To know what it depicts you have to know the mythology.

I believe that image is commemorative and was put there by ancient people in that location because according to mythology it was in that place mount Lawu, the Purwacarita kingdom that the divine Empu Hyang Ramadi forged the first keris at the behest of king Maha Dewa Buda, the Hyang Guru.

The carving at Candi Sukuh on mount Lawu was put there by people who believed this mythology to be history, the smith at the left of the image is the divine Empu Ramadi and the elephant headed figure is the Hyang Guru instructing him to make the keris.