Kris question to the knowledgeables

Pusaka · 12th January 2006, 05:33 PM

One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag

http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

Andrew · 12th January 2006, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag

http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

Pusaka, your link to a commercial site is interesting, but does not really support your position. What "records" are you referring to? (Mind you: I'm genuinely interested, and not necessarily disagreeing with your theory.)

You've been down the meteorite path on this board before, and it did not end well.

Everyone please maintain civility lest this thread suffer similar fate.

marto suwignyo · 12th January 2006, 08:55 PM

This discussion has turn to a very interesting and maybe important direction for keris study, I feel.

I will to give my compliment to Mr. Pusaka for his original way to think about the keris and for his understanding to see the influence of Indian culture in the origin of the keris.

The origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. There are many theories and beliefs, and maybe now we can never know for truly where from comes the keris. But if we will to give a theory about keris origin, and if we will that people maybe accept that the theory we have is a little bit true, we must also to give evidence and/or a logic reasons that our theory is worth to consider as maybe true. Just an idea without evidence and without logic reasons is for pleasant discussion to fill in time if we drink coffee.

In this Forum several years past was also a discussion about keris origin. In this discussion appears this remark:-

"Actually,what I set out to do when I commenced my investigations into this matter was to try to establish the existence of a keris like dagger in India prior to an appearance in Jawa.My research into archaic forms was thorough.I failed to establish this existence ,and as a consequence ,was left with only Prambanan II."

This remark made by Mr. Alan Maisey. He talking about his early research to discover keris origin.

For people who interest in ideas about keris origin maybe is a good idea to read this thread. Here is the link:-
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000607.html

About meteor in the keris blade.

This also something that many times people discussion. In Jawa we believe that keris have make with meteor since long ago. But this our belief, this has never been prove, except for the keris from Prambanan meteor and that only to begin about maybe 1800. For people with the interest in using meteor for making keris blade maybe a good idea to read the work of Mr. Bennet Bronson :- "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris", publish in "Historical Metallurgy" Vol.21.No.1, 1987.

Mr. Pusaka again I will to give you my compliment for your original way to think. I hope you do not lose your interest with the keris and that you will to continue your study with the serious and academic approach.

Andrew · 12th January 2006, 11:13 PM

Outstanding post, Marto. Thank you for the sage words.

Rick · 12th January 2006, 11:51 PM

One could also suggest that Mr. Pusaka may benefit and further his overall knowledge from a thorough reading of Robert Elgood's fine book Hindu Arms and Ritual isbn# 90 5972 020 2 .

nechesh · 13th January 2006, 12:08 AM

Marto, sensible and informative words as usual. Can you make any suggestions on where i might get a hold of Mr. Bronson"s "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris". After a frustrating round of googling i came up with no usable results.

Pusaka · 13th January 2006, 09:46 PM

Thank you Marto Suwignyo for your kind words and yes I will read that document you suggest.

If we consider for a moment that the keris is from Vedic India then perhaps we should consider written Sanskrit and its relation to the keris. One of the shortest written prayers in Sanskrit is OM. OM is considered to be a vibration which fills the universe, the very essence of the creator. It is composed of 3 Sanskrit letters, A,U,M. The first character is A which consists of two characters joined together, the first looks like a 3 and the second looks like a n. Above the n character is a curved character which represents the letter U. Finally the last character looks like an O and represents the Sanskrit letter M. AUM, pronounced Om is a very important prayer in Vedic Indian times as it is at present. Examining the markings filed into the Keris I suddenly realised that it was Sanskrit writing. Looking at this particular Keris the prayer Om is repeated 4 times. One thing that should be realised is that the Sanskrit letter M has no dimension in space and so can be represented as a dot or a circle. It represents the inner universe while the other characters represent the outer universe. Looking at the picture you can see how the markings on the keris are in fact Sanskrit characters.
All my study’s so far point to a strong Vedic Indian influence. I hope people can now understand how ridiculous it is to say the keris is a Muslim creation.

13th January 2006, 09:46 PM	#7
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Thank you Marto Suwignyo for your kind words and yes I will read that document you suggest. If we consider for a moment that the keris is from Vedic India then perhaps we should consider written Sanskrit and its relation to the keris. One of the shortest written prayers in Sanskrit is OM. OM is considered to be a vibration which fills the universe, the very essence of the creator. It is composed of 3 Sanskrit letters, A,U,M. The first character is A which consists of two characters joined together, the first looks like a 3 and the second looks like a n. Above the n character is a curved character which represents the letter U. Finally the last character looks like an O and represents the Sanskrit letter M. AUM, pronounced Om is a very important prayer in Vedic Indian times as it is at present. Examining the markings filed into the Keris I suddenly realised that it was Sanskrit writing. Looking at this particular Keris the prayer Om is repeated 4 times. One thing that should be realised is that the Sanskrit letter M has no dimension in space and so can be represented as a dot or a circle. It represents the inner universe while the other characters represent the outer universe. Looking at the picture you can see how the markings on the keris are in fact Sanskrit characters. All my study’s so far point to a strong Vedic Indian influence. I hope people can now understand how ridiculous it is to say the keris is a Muslim creation. Attached Images

12th January 2006, 05:33 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

12th January 2006, 08:55 PM	#3
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	This discussion has turn to a very interesting and maybe important direction for keris study, I feel. I will to give my compliment to Mr. Pusaka for his original way to think about the keris and for his understanding to see the influence of Indian culture in the origin of the keris. The origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. There are many theories and beliefs, and maybe now we can never know for truly where from comes the keris. But if we will to give a theory about keris origin, and if we will that people maybe accept that the theory we have is a little bit true, we must also to give evidence and/or a logic reasons that our theory is worth to consider as maybe true. Just an idea without evidence and without logic reasons is for pleasant discussion to fill in time if we drink coffee. In this Forum several years past was also a discussion about keris origin. In this discussion appears this remark:- "Actually,what I set out to do when I commenced my investigations into this matter was to try to establish the existence of a keris like dagger in India prior to an appearance in Jawa.My research into archaic forms was thorough.I failed to establish this existence ,and as a consequence ,was left with only Prambanan II." This remark made by Mr. Alan Maisey. He talking about his early research to discover keris origin. For people who interest in ideas about keris origin maybe is a good idea to read this thread. Here is the link:- http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000607.html About meteor in the keris blade. This also something that many times people discussion. In Jawa we believe that keris have make with meteor since long ago. But this our belief, this has never been prove, except for the keris from Prambanan meteor and that only to begin about maybe 1800. For people with the interest in using meteor for making keris blade maybe a good idea to read the work of Mr. Bennet Bronson :- "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris", publish in "Historical Metallurgy" Vol.21.No.1, 1987. Mr. Pusaka again I will to give you my compliment for your original way to think. I hope you do not lose your interest with the keris and that you will to continue your study with the serious and academic approach.

12th January 2006, 11:13 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Outstanding post, Marto. Thank you for the sage words.

12th January 2006, 11:51 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	One could also suggest that Mr. Pusaka may benefit and further his overall knowledge from a thorough reading of Robert Elgood's fine book Hindu Arms and Ritual isbn# 90 5972 020 2 .

13th January 2006, 12:08 AM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Marto, sensible and informative words as usual. Can you make any suggestions on where i might get a hold of Mr. Bronson"s "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris". After a frustrating round of googling i came up with no usable results.