The Javanese blade age guessing game

RSWORD · 31st October 2015, 08:21 PM

Keris #5 has a fairly bold "chicken feather" pamor. It seems a lot of this style of pamor are contemporary. This one seems different because the feathered pattern is captured between the edge ridges. Not a good description of what I am seeing but hopefully the pictures illustrate what I am talking about. I don't know how old this type of pamor is but my guess is that it is fairly recent. So I will guess this blade is late 19th to early 20th century.

RSWORD · 31st October 2015, 08:24 PM

This is intended to be fun and share our guesses as to age. Again, caveat that this is being done from pictures on a computer screen so I won't hold anyone to it. Curious if folks agree or disagree with my guesses. I'm also curious if the consensus tends to be the same or if any of the pieces illicit a variety of opinions.

A. G. Maisey · 31st October 2015, 09:24 PM

Post #5, keris #4, is the oldest blade, the others I'm not prepared to give an opinion on, simply too many missing pieces and absolutely no knowledge of the history.

Just based on what I can see in the pics, I'd probably be prepared to place all except #5 into the 1800's, but there are a couple that could be earlier, and one that could be very old indeed.

But from pics?

Nope, not possible for me I'm afraid.

RSWORD · 1st November 2015, 03:26 AM

Alan,

Thanks for the thoughts. For the 2 that could be earlier and the one that could be very old are there additional pictures or information I can provide to help?

A. G. Maisey · 1st November 2015, 07:56 AM

Thanks for asking, but no, no additional pics or info would assist, I'd really need to handle them.

I have a whole heap of photos of old keris that are in museums in Europe, many were collected pre-1800, some pre-1700. If these keris were stripped of dress and even very, very good photos were presented for opinion probably most people would guess them at less than 100 years old. You just cannot tell very much from a photograph.

Even when you have it in your hand, it becomes an educated guess to put an age on it.

The major problem with trying to put age on a keris is that within Javanese culture nobody takes any notice, nor has any desire to establish the true age of a keris. Keris people use the tangguh system, which is really a system of classification originally developed for reasons other than to establish age per se, but it is still the foundation of any attempt to establish age.

Sound contradictory?

It is.

But we can more or less establish a tangguh from the relevant indicators, and if those indicators point to a recent period, such as, for example, Surakarta, we can have a reasonable degree of certainty that in fact we are looking at a keris from the Surakarta era, and condition will provide a broad guideline to actual age --- not that this is particularly important to the people who own this cultural artifact, that is, the Javanese, because what they base their appreciation on is not age at all, in fact nothing at all to do with age, but rather artistic content, and in some cases whether the keris is "alive", or "empty".

Yes, age is very often important to collectors in the western world, but these collectors have constructed their own value system, and it relates only very faintly to the value system that applies in Jawa, which is constructed on artistic interpretation and the esteem in which any particular historic era is held, this esteem is principally related to the concepts of honour and power.

Many Javanese keris conscious people will align tangguh to the historic era that has provided the name for the tangguh, but very often this belief is based as much on myth and legend as on reality.

Only a couple of hours ago I was handling a keris that in my opinion dates from the late 16th through to the early 17th century. I can provide reasons for my opinion, but that opinion is based on my very lengthy experience with some input from the tangguh system. It is not in the terms of the Western World an opinion which can be defended.

This is the crux of the matter:- we can fly our opinions to our hearts' content, but if we cannot defend those opinions, of what value are they?

Quite simply, there is no reasonably reliable system in existence that will assist in establishing the true age of a keris blade. With experience we can differentiate between old and recent, but the overlaps are considerable, as is the possibility of error.

Bob A · 1st November 2015, 10:14 PM

Since age is not a factor that enters into the understanding or appreciation of the keris, according to the lights of those people whose artifacts they are, is there any notion of provenance or continuity of existence which might be a factor in their appreciation?

Art, in the West, seems to have relational linkage to the time in which it was created. Is this at all the case with keris? What factors of aesthetic appreciation are most easily grasped by the western sensibility, that can be used in understanding what a Javanese might sense within a given artifact?

And under what conditions or circumstances are intangible qualities such as "life" or "emptiness" capable of being apprehended? Does this depend on a cultural submersion, or is it rendered sensible absent training and exposure?

I recognise that the ability to formulate a question might not have any correspondence to the possibility of a meaningful answer. Even so, a glancing blow can strike a spark, if conditions are correct.

A. G. Maisey · 1st November 2015, 11:19 PM

Age per se is not an important factor, but perceived age, as related to perceived era is a relevant factor.

For a Javanese keris conscious person the base system of reference is the tangguh system, and this tangguh system is based on a belief system. Here is a link to a page in my site that gives a brief outline of tangguh:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html

In respect of the Javanese artistic appreciation of keris art, the first principle is to relate the blade to human body language and form, as understood within Javanese society. Following on from that, more universal standards that apply to excellence of craftsmanship and achievement of pre-determined objectives can be applied.

The ideas of a blade being "empty" or of being "alive" are largely dependent upon individual perception within the framework of the keris belief system. To a degree this can be regarded as a culturally related concept, but instances have occurred where people outside the Javanese culture system, and with absolutely no understanding of it have encountered a perception of a presence related to a keris.

31st October 2015, 08:21 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Keris #5 has a fairly bold "chicken feather" pamor. It seems a lot of this style of pamor are contemporary. This one seems different because the feathered pattern is captured between the edge ridges. Not a good description of what I am seeing but hopefully the pictures illustrate what I am talking about. I don't know how old this type of pamor is but my guess is that it is fairly recent. So I will guess this blade is late 19th to early 20th century. Attached Images

31st October 2015, 08:24 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	This is intended to be fun and share our guesses as to age. Again, caveat that this is being done from pictures on a computer screen so I won't hold anyone to it. Curious if folks agree or disagree with my guesses. I'm also curious if the consensus tends to be the same or if any of the pieces illicit a variety of opinions.

31st October 2015, 09:24 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Post #5, keris #4, is the oldest blade, the others I'm not prepared to give an opinion on, simply too many missing pieces and absolutely no knowledge of the history. Just based on what I can see in the pics, I'd probably be prepared to place all except #5 into the 1800's, but there are a couple that could be earlier, and one that could be very old indeed. But from pics? Nope, not possible for me I'm afraid.

1st November 2015, 03:26 AM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Alan, Thanks for the thoughts. For the 2 that could be earlier and the one that could be very old are there additional pictures or information I can provide to help?

1st November 2015, 07:56 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks for asking, but no, no additional pics or info would assist, I'd really need to handle them. I have a whole heap of photos of old keris that are in museums in Europe, many were collected pre-1800, some pre-1700. If these keris were stripped of dress and even very, very good photos were presented for opinion probably most people would guess them at less than 100 years old. You just cannot tell very much from a photograph. Even when you have it in your hand, it becomes an educated guess to put an age on it. The major problem with trying to put age on a keris is that within Javanese culture nobody takes any notice, nor has any desire to establish the true age of a keris. Keris people use the tangguh system, which is really a system of classification originally developed for reasons other than to establish age per se, but it is still the foundation of any attempt to establish age. Sound contradictory? It is. But we can more or less establish a tangguh from the relevant indicators, and if those indicators point to a recent period, such as, for example, Surakarta, we can have a reasonable degree of certainty that in fact we are looking at a keris from the Surakarta era, and condition will provide a broad guideline to actual age --- not that this is particularly important to the people who own this cultural artifact, that is, the Javanese, because what they base their appreciation on is not age at all, in fact nothing at all to do with age, but rather artistic content, and in some cases whether the keris is "alive", or "empty". Yes, age is very often important to collectors in the western world, but these collectors have constructed their own value system, and it relates only very faintly to the value system that applies in Jawa, which is constructed on artistic interpretation and the esteem in which any particular historic era is held, this esteem is principally related to the concepts of honour and power. Many Javanese keris conscious people will align tangguh to the historic era that has provided the name for the tangguh, but very often this belief is based as much on myth and legend as on reality. Only a couple of hours ago I was handling a keris that in my opinion dates from the late 16th through to the early 17th century. I can provide reasons for my opinion, but that opinion is based on my very lengthy experience with some input from the tangguh system. It is not in the terms of the Western World an opinion which can be defended. This is the crux of the matter:- we can fly our opinions to our hearts' content, but if we cannot defend those opinions, of what value are they? Quite simply, there is no reasonably reliable system in existence that will assist in establishing the true age of a keris blade. With experience we can differentiate between old and recent, but the overlaps are considerable, as is the possibility of error.

1st November 2015, 10:14 PM	#6
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	Since age is not a factor that enters into the understanding or appreciation of the keris, according to the lights of those people whose artifacts they are, is there any notion of provenance or continuity of existence which might be a factor in their appreciation? Art, in the West, seems to have relational linkage to the time in which it was created. Is this at all the case with keris? What factors of aesthetic appreciation are most easily grasped by the western sensibility, that can be used in understanding what a Javanese might sense within a given artifact? And under what conditions or circumstances are intangible qualities such as "life" or "emptiness" capable of being apprehended? Does this depend on a cultural submersion, or is it rendered sensible absent training and exposure? I recognise that the ability to formulate a question might not have any correspondence to the possibility of a meaningful answer. Even so, a glancing blow can strike a spark, if conditions are correct.

1st November 2015, 11:19 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Age per se is not an important factor, but perceived age, as related to perceived era is a relevant factor. For a Javanese keris conscious person the base system of reference is the tangguh system, and this tangguh system is based on a belief system. Here is a link to a page in my site that gives a brief outline of tangguh:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html In respect of the Javanese artistic appreciation of keris art, the first principle is to relate the blade to human body language and form, as understood within Javanese society. Following on from that, more universal standards that apply to excellence of craftsmanship and achievement of pre-determined objectives can be applied. The ideas of a blade being "empty" or of being "alive" are largely dependent upon individual perception within the framework of the keris belief system. To a degree this can be regarded as a culturally related concept, but instances have occurred where people outside the Javanese culture system, and with absolutely no understanding of it have encountered a perception of a presence related to a keris.