Indian Swords with downward curving blades

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2015, 07:05 PM

Well put Emanuel, and as noted, the choil (a distinct kukri feature) as well as the wider (kopis type) profile place this more in the kukri range.
The sosun pattah is characterized by the recurve and inside cutting edge, but not with this type blade. As always, these classifications become quite vague as these variations occur in diffusion of forms.

It seems to me that in the Bengal regions nearer to Nepal, such variations occur with kora hilted with the Indo-Persian hilt (as here) and much stouter, heavier blade more like a ram dao. These often have the eye or decoration near blade tip, and I have understood these to have been used as a sacrificial weapon with doves. The one I had still had vestiges of the red paint apparently applied to augment symbolic details of the blade.

I would consider that this kukri like version may have perhaps also been used in that manner but not necessarily for doves as in Bengal.
I am curious on the deep stamp at blade center, and what script or language might be in it. It resembles the deep stamps often seen on early tulwar blades in the Northwest regions of India, such as with trisula or stamps in Urdu.

The first example with the brass pavilion theme decoration does seem like it was in a discussion years ago (besides the thread you linked) and the production of souvenier items for British forces was noted. It seems to me that this cottage industry pretty much evolved after Omdurman in the Anglo Egyptian Sudan occupation, at least in notable subsidized production of these 'souveniers'.

Battara · 31st October 2015, 01:56 AM

.....and besides the sossoun pata is a lot longer, the blade basically being not just sword length, but also usually the size and shape of the Ottoman yataghan.

Another thought is that some of the early kukris were much larger than most of the ones we see today.

ariel · 1st November 2015, 02:12 PM

Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-)

Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin.
But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas .

Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average?

Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one.

What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable.

Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful!

Please see Artzi's description of:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487

ariel · 1st November 2015, 02:32 PM

Just an example: 3 Sosun Patas.
The upper one has an 18th century real Ottoman blade ( the mastique is old and crumbling, so it is not a recent remounting)
The middle one is also yataghan-like, but not quite.
The lower one is a totally different animal:-)

ariel · 1st November 2015, 02:37 PM

And another one: size of a Kukri, but no Cho. There was an opinion that it might be a reshaped Kora. Perhaps. But it has a perfectly fitting very old scabbard, so the owner of even the reworked weapon saw nothing unusual in its new incarnation.

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2015, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-)

Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin.
But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas .

Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average?

Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one.

What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable.

Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful!

Please see Artzi's description of:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487

Well supported rebuttal, and excellently stated perspective .

Ian · 1st November 2015, 04:39 PM

Ariel:

I agree that there could easily be some mingling of styles between the kukri and sossun patta. Both are recurved blades, and I could see a Rajput warrior saying something like, "I want a sossun patta that is a bit shorter than usual for close quarter work, but heavier in the belly--a bit like that one from Nepal you showed me the other day, only longer." These types of discussion must have gone on for centuries among men-at-arms of all races and nations. The search for a perfect weapon for a particular task must have been never ending, borrowing from here and there trying to get it right.

The Mongols, of course, unhesitatingly adopted whatever they thought was useful, simply absorbing (and being absorbed by) all they conquered. Since we are dealing with a Mughal (Mongol) influenced weapon in the sossun patta, I'm sure their instincts would have been to modify and improve it any way that seemed useful.

Ian

Jens Nordlunde · 1st November 2015, 04:43 PM

As can be seen in many stone reliefs and hero stones, it is known that forward curves 'knives' in earlier times were used in Deccan/south India.
It is hard to say how long they were, but it seems as if they were shorter than the swords used at the time.
Why they 'moved' to the north is hard to say, but it could be, as I read somewhere, that a population was driven away, and went to the north, bringing their weapos and culture with them.

Miguel · 1st November 2015, 10:24 PM

Hi, I would like to thank yu all for participating in this thread which has proved most interesting todate.
Emanuel I thoroughly enjoyed the links but the conflicts of opinion between the reference works and "experts" can be somewhat confusing.

Jim, Thanks for your comments although I don't agree with your thoughts on the plain weapon being for sacrificial purposes, if it was I believe it would have some decoration or inscription. I believe it to be a purely fighting weapon due to its robust no nonsense construction and well forged blade. I just hope that someone will translate or identify the stamp so that a region in either India or Nepal can be identified.

Ariel, Thanks for your comments, images and links which show very clearly that the plain weapon is a hybrid Kukri / Sosson Pattah which I am pleased about because it is what I thought but did not mention it as I did not wish to lead anybody.

Ian, Thanks that is a more than likely possible scenario.

Jens, Thanks for your interesting comments which sooner or later will be confirmed researchers in this field.

I am still surprised that this hybrid weapon does not appear to have definitive name. The Kora which was also copied by the Indians and fitted with a Talwar hilt has two Indian names being known as a Jamadhar Teg or a Kharga.
Miguel

Emanuel · 1st November 2015, 10:59 PM

That's why I said semantics Ariel

If this sword came from a Nepalese armoury, a Nepalese would probably call it a khukri.
If it came from a Mughal armoury a Mughal might call it a sossoun pata.
A Rajput might call it...and so on.

The cho is generally characteristic of khukri. The rest is semantics

Confusing indeed Miguel.

1st November 2015, 02:12 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-) Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin. But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas . Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average? Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one. What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable. Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful! Please see Artzi's description of: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487 Last edited by ariel; 1st November 2015 at 02:47 PM.

1st November 2015, 02:32 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just an example: 3 Sosun Patas. The upper one has an 18th century real Ottoman blade ( the mastique is old and crumbling, so it is not a recent remounting) The middle one is also yataghan-like, but not quite. The lower one is a totally different animal:-) Attached Images

1st November 2015, 02:37 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And another one: size of a Kukri, but no Cho. There was an opinion that it might be a reshaped Kora. Perhaps. But it has a perfectly fitting very old scabbard, so the owner of even the reworked weapon saw nothing unusual in its new incarnation. Attached Images

30th October 2015, 07:05 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,285	Well put Emanuel, and as noted, the choil (a distinct kukri feature) as well as the wider (kopis type) profile place this more in the kukri range. The sosun pattah is characterized by the recurve and inside cutting edge, but not with this type blade. As always, these classifications become quite vague as these variations occur in diffusion of forms. It seems to me that in the Bengal regions nearer to Nepal, such variations occur with kora hilted with the Indo-Persian hilt (as here) and much stouter, heavier blade more like a ram dao. These often have the eye or decoration near blade tip, and I have understood these to have been used as a sacrificial weapon with doves. The one I had still had vestiges of the red paint apparently applied to augment symbolic details of the blade. I would consider that this kukri like version may have perhaps also been used in that manner but not necessarily for doves as in Bengal. I am curious on the deep stamp at blade center, and what script or language might be in it. It resembles the deep stamps often seen on early tulwar blades in the Northwest regions of India, such as with trisula or stamps in Urdu. The first example with the brass pavilion theme decoration does seem like it was in a discussion years ago (besides the thread you linked) and the production of souvenier items for British forces was noted. It seems to me that this cottage industry pretty much evolved after Omdurman in the Anglo Egyptian Sudan occupation, at least in notable subsidized production of these 'souveniers'.

31st October 2015, 01:56 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	.....and besides the sossoun pata is a lot longer, the blade basically being not just sword length, but also usually the size and shape of the Ottoman yataghan. Another thought is that some of the early kukris were much larger than most of the ones we see today.

1st November 2015, 04:39 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Ariel: I agree that there could easily be some mingling of styles between the kukri and sossun patta. Both are recurved blades, and I could see a Rajput warrior saying something like, "I want a sossun patta that is a bit shorter than usual for close quarter work, but heavier in the belly--a bit like that one from Nepal you showed me the other day, only longer." These types of discussion must have gone on for centuries among men-at-arms of all races and nations. The search for a perfect weapon for a particular task must have been never ending, borrowing from here and there trying to get it right. The Mongols, of course, unhesitatingly adopted whatever they thought was useful, simply absorbing (and being absorbed by) all they conquered. Since we are dealing with a Mughal (Mongol) influenced weapon in the sossun patta, I'm sure their instincts would have been to modify and improve it any way that seemed useful. Ian

1st November 2015, 04:43 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	As can be seen in many stone reliefs and hero stones, it is known that forward curves 'knives' in earlier times were used in Deccan/south India. It is hard to say how long they were, but it seems as if they were shorter than the swords used at the time. Why they 'moved' to the north is hard to say, but it could be, as I read somewhere, that a population was driven away, and went to the north, bringing their weapos and culture with them.

1st November 2015, 10:24 PM	#9
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hi, I would like to thank yu all for participating in this thread which has proved most interesting todate. Emanuel I thoroughly enjoyed the links but the conflicts of opinion between the reference works and "experts" can be somewhat confusing. Jim, Thanks for your comments although I don't agree with your thoughts on the plain weapon being for sacrificial purposes, if it was I believe it would have some decoration or inscription. I believe it to be a purely fighting weapon due to its robust no nonsense construction and well forged blade. I just hope that someone will translate or identify the stamp so that a region in either India or Nepal can be identified. Ariel, Thanks for your comments, images and links which show very clearly that the plain weapon is a hybrid Kukri / Sosson Pattah which I am pleased about because it is what I thought but did not mention it as I did not wish to lead anybody. Ian, Thanks that is a more than likely possible scenario. Jens, Thanks for your interesting comments which sooner or later will be confirmed researchers in this field. I am still surprised that this hybrid weapon does not appear to have definitive name. The Kora which was also copied by the Indians and fitted with a Talwar hilt has two Indian names being known as a Jamadhar Teg or a Kharga. Miguel

1st November 2015, 10:59 PM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	That's why I said semantics Ariel If this sword came from a Nepalese armoury, a Nepalese would probably call it a khukri. If it came from a Mughal armoury a Mughal might call it a sossoun pata. A Rajput might call it...and so on. The cho is generally characteristic of khukri. The rest is semantics Confusing indeed Miguel.