Indian Swords with downward curving blades

Emanuel · 29th October 2015, 07:02 PM

Here is some information on this type of khukri:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9718

Your top one is indeed for the tourist trade, albeit the early-20th century variety, so it's still old.

The bottom one looks more like the fighting kind.

Emanuel

ariel · 30th October 2015, 01:18 PM

Isn't the lower one a Sossun Pata?

Emanuel · 30th October 2015, 06:28 PM

Semantics, but no.
It has a cho/kaudi, so it's a khukri

Here are more:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...36&postcount=9

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2015, 07:05 PM

Well put Emanuel, and as noted, the choil (a distinct kukri feature) as well as the wider (kopis type) profile place this more in the kukri range.
The sosun pattah is characterized by the recurve and inside cutting edge, but not with this type blade. As always, these classifications become quite vague as these variations occur in diffusion of forms.

It seems to me that in the Bengal regions nearer to Nepal, such variations occur with kora hilted with the Indo-Persian hilt (as here) and much stouter, heavier blade more like a ram dao. These often have the eye or decoration near blade tip, and I have understood these to have been used as a sacrificial weapon with doves. The one I had still had vestiges of the red paint apparently applied to augment symbolic details of the blade.

I would consider that this kukri like version may have perhaps also been used in that manner but not necessarily for doves as in Bengal.
I am curious on the deep stamp at blade center, and what script or language might be in it. It resembles the deep stamps often seen on early tulwar blades in the Northwest regions of India, such as with trisula or stamps in Urdu.

The first example with the brass pavilion theme decoration does seem like it was in a discussion years ago (besides the thread you linked) and the production of souvenier items for British forces was noted. It seems to me that this cottage industry pretty much evolved after Omdurman in the Anglo Egyptian Sudan occupation, at least in notable subsidized production of these 'souveniers'.

Battara · 31st October 2015, 01:56 AM

.....and besides the sossoun pata is a lot longer, the blade basically being not just sword length, but also usually the size and shape of the Ottoman yataghan.

Another thought is that some of the early kukris were much larger than most of the ones we see today.

ariel · 1st November 2015, 02:12 PM

Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-)

Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin.
But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas .

Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average?

Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one.

What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable.

Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful!

Please see Artzi's description of:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487

ariel · 1st November 2015, 02:32 PM

Just an example: 3 Sosun Patas.
The upper one has an 18th century real Ottoman blade ( the mastique is old and crumbling, so it is not a recent remounting)
The middle one is also yataghan-like, but not quite.
The lower one is a totally different animal:-)

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2015, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-)

Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin.
But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas .

Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average?

Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one.

What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable.

Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful!

Please see Artzi's description of:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487

Well supported rebuttal, and excellently stated perspective .

1st November 2015, 02:12 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-) Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin. But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas . Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average? Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one. What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable. Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful! Please see Artzi's description of: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487 Last edited by ariel; 1st November 2015 at 02:47 PM.

1st November 2015, 02:32 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just an example: 3 Sosun Patas. The upper one has an 18th century real Ottoman blade ( the mastique is old and crumbling, so it is not a recent remounting) The middle one is also yataghan-like, but not quite. The lower one is a totally different animal:-) Attached Images

29th October 2015, 07:02 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here is some information on this type of khukri: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9718 Your top one is indeed for the tourist trade, albeit the early-20th century variety, so it's still old. The bottom one looks more like the fighting kind. Emanuel

30th October 2015, 01:18 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Isn't the lower one a Sossun Pata?

30th October 2015, 06:28 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Semantics, but no. It has a cho/kaudi, so it's a khukri Here are more: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...36&postcount=9

30th October 2015, 07:05 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Well put Emanuel, and as noted, the choil (a distinct kukri feature) as well as the wider (kopis type) profile place this more in the kukri range. The sosun pattah is characterized by the recurve and inside cutting edge, but not with this type blade. As always, these classifications become quite vague as these variations occur in diffusion of forms. It seems to me that in the Bengal regions nearer to Nepal, such variations occur with kora hilted with the Indo-Persian hilt (as here) and much stouter, heavier blade more like a ram dao. These often have the eye or decoration near blade tip, and I have understood these to have been used as a sacrificial weapon with doves. The one I had still had vestiges of the red paint apparently applied to augment symbolic details of the blade. I would consider that this kukri like version may have perhaps also been used in that manner but not necessarily for doves as in Bengal. I am curious on the deep stamp at blade center, and what script or language might be in it. It resembles the deep stamps often seen on early tulwar blades in the Northwest regions of India, such as with trisula or stamps in Urdu. The first example with the brass pavilion theme decoration does seem like it was in a discussion years ago (besides the thread you linked) and the production of souvenier items for British forces was noted. It seems to me that this cottage industry pretty much evolved after Omdurman in the Anglo Egyptian Sudan occupation, at least in notable subsidized production of these 'souveniers'.

31st October 2015, 01:56 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	.....and besides the sossoun pata is a lot longer, the blade basically being not just sword length, but also usually the size and shape of the Ottoman yataghan. Another thought is that some of the early kukris were much larger than most of the ones we see today.