Kris question to the knowledgeables

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

I would appreciate if you gentlemen could enlighten me on the meanings of what I call lattice work in the right and the left side of the flaring of the blade. I'm most curious to learn as I am aware they have meanings.
It appears to me that the right side has somehow the shape of an elephant?
Also, is the origin of the Kris has been established?
Indonesia or Philippines?
Who influenced who?
Is it essentially a Muslim sword?

Short answers to a tall order-
Assuming the keris arrived in the Philippines and paralleled development according to traces of early written history from the 9th century as evidence of influence and connectedness to neighboring kingdoms,
the changes from keris to kris occurred after the Muslim conversion in the 15th century as early as the 17th century (note: one of the earliest accounts of the kris as a cut and thrust weapon was found in writings by Dampier)
the longer explanation of why and where the evolution from keris to kris occurred is in another thread,
some of the symbolic meanings were pre-Islamic,
depending on which Moro group one is researching,
the symbolism differs from bird, naga to elephant etc. (some detailed meanings noted in this thread by keris experts)
Moro royalty recorded relationships to kingdoms of 15th century Johore, Melaka, Sumatra and Brunei.
One can not state the kris is "essentially" a Muslim sword because the kris and keris in the Philippines were also used and made by non-Muslims (examples appear among the Visayans, Katipunan, etc.)
imho

[Pusaka]

One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag

http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag

http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

Pusaka, your link to a commercial site is interesting, but does not really support your position. What "records" are you referring to? (Mind you: I'm genuinely interested, and not necessarily disagreeing with your theory.)

You've been down the meteorite path on this board before, and it did not end well.


Everyone please maintain civility lest this thread suffer similar fate.

[marto suwignyo]

This discussion has turn to a very interesting and maybe important direction for keris study, I feel.

I will to give my compliment to Mr. Pusaka for his original way to think about the keris and for his understanding to see the influence of Indian culture in the origin of the keris.

The origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. There are many theories and beliefs, and maybe now we can never know for truly where from comes the keris. But if we will to give a theory about keris origin, and if we will that people maybe accept that the theory we have is a little bit true, we must also to give evidence and/or a logic reasons that our theory is worth to consider as maybe true. Just an idea without evidence and without logic reasons is for pleasant discussion to fill in time if we drink coffee.

In this Forum several years past was also a discussion about keris origin. In this discussion appears this remark:-

"Actually,what I set out to do when I commenced my investigations into this matter was to try to establish the existence of a keris like dagger in India prior to an appearance in Jawa.My research into archaic forms was thorough.I failed to establish this existence ,and as a consequence ,was left with only Prambanan II."

This remark made by Mr. Alan Maisey. He talking about his early research to discover keris origin.

For people who interest in ideas about keris origin maybe is a good idea to read this thread. Here is the link:-
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000607.html

About meteor in the keris blade.

This also something that many times people discussion. In Jawa we believe that keris have make with meteor since long ago. But this our belief, this has never been prove, except for the keris from Prambanan meteor and that only to begin about maybe 1800. For people with the interest in using meteor for making keris blade maybe a good idea to read the work of Mr. Bennet Bronson :- "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris", publish in "Historical Metallurgy" Vol.21.No.1, 1987.

Mr. Pusaka again I will to give you my compliment for your original way to think. I hope you do not lose your interest with the keris and that you will to continue your study with the serious and academic approach.

[Andrew]

Outstanding post, Marto. Thank you for the sage words.

[Rick]

One could also suggest that Mr. Pusaka may benefit and further his overall knowledge from a thorough reading of Robert Elgood's fine book Hindu Arms and Ritual isbn# 90 5972 020 2 .

[nechesh]

Marto, sensible and informative words as usual. Can you make any suggestions on where i might get a hold of Mr. Bronson"s "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris". After a frustrating round of googling i came up with no usable results.