On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd October 2015, 01:30 PM

Emanuel, in the Aziz book you mentioned the phul-katara, it is mentioned about ten times, here are a few quotes.

Page 9. "Among the articles presented by Nur Jahan to Prince Shah Jahan on Thursday, the 27 Mirh (Xii ruling year), were a waisy-band studded with pearls, a sword with jewelled shoulder belt (paradala) and a phul-katara."
Here the phul-katara stands alone, unlike in the other places where it is mentioned.

Page 97. "WhenShah Shuja was sent on the Deccan expedition (22 Safar, 1043) he received a spaccil robe of honour with gold-worked Nadiri, a jewelled khapwa with phul-katara, a jewelled sword....."

Page 143. "The Emperor bestoved on the bridegroom [Sultan Sulaiman Shukoh, te eldest sone of Dara Shukoh] a robe of honour........a jewelled jamdhar with phul-katara........."
The plate you show in your last mail is from the Moser catalogue 1912.
Lets say that phul-katara was the flowers like on the dagger in the midle. How can it then be explained that flowers like that can be placed on a jamdahar/katar? The only place I can think of, is chiselled on the blade, gilded and with gems inlaid. But we dont know if it was so.

In the plate you showed from Arms and Jewellery there are three 'katars'.
No 5. Jamdahar. Looking like most of the katars we know to day.
no 10. Narsingh-moth. Blade narrow and curved.
no 11. Katara. Side guards bend outwards, blade as broad as the ´hilt and curved.
Here is a quote from page 53-54. "The katar or Katara is a beautiful weapon with handle similar to thar of the jamdhar, but the blade is much narrower and longer, and is curved.
Irvin quotes the following from the translator of the Siyar: 'A poignard peculiar to India made with a hilt, whose two branches extend along the arm, so as to shelter the hand and part of the arm............ The total length is 2 or 2½ feet, one half of it being the blade." It is also mentioned in the text, no quoted, that the blade is very thick with two cutting edges, having a breadth of three inches at the hilt and a solid point of about one inch in breadth.
The description above sounds more like a jamdhar, than a description of the two others.
Maybe someone saw a katara, heard the name and forun that all daggers with such a hilt must have been named the same - or found it easier to do so.
Jens

Emanuel · 22nd October 2015, 05:17 PM

Hi Jens,

Simple answer is that I have no idea. A floral hilt on what we think of jamadhar with arm bars makes no sense.

Like you say, we dont know if it was so. We have multiple terms in English translations apparently used interchangeably (katar, katara, khanjar, jamadhar, khapwa). We still don't know if the term referred to specific handle type, blade type, curvature, thickness, or entire ensemble. The use of these terms seems to have changed over time place.

Maybe katara referred just to a narrow blade, slightly curved. Maybe not. Like most things, there were probably qualifiers to denote more specific uses (ex. slashing knife, stabbing knife, dagger, punch-dagger, etc...).

Based on the sources at my disposal, my thinking was that the term phul-katara matched a dagger that has a narrow, piercing, slightly curved blade, and some form of major floral hilt. Could be jewelled or not. Ivory, or other material like jade/nephratite.

Unless we go to the original texts and associate them with period illustrations, we know nothing

Then again we have the Ain-i-Akbari in Urdu, and the Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri in Persian covering matters in the Mughal context.

What do we have from the Rajputs?

Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd October 2015, 06:11 PM

Emanuel,
We dont have very much hiis early, and the drawings like the ones from Ani-Akbar would at best leave something to guessing.
There is of course the description of the katar - katara/jamdhar/narsingh-moth.
My guess is, that the Europeians choose one name for daggers with this kind of hilt - but this is purely guessing.

The katars shown in the Akbar miniatures are clearly jamdahars, and I try to research this, as there is something funny/strange, but I am not prepared to discuss anything about it yet.

A pity I did not contact you when I was in Toronto some years ago :-).

Jens

Emanuel · 22nd October 2015, 07:17 PM

There are indeed some interesting things in those Akbar miniatures. I'm looking through the copies I found online and there is lots to extract and dissect.

A pity indeed. Next time you come by our shores, please do drop a line

Emanuel

Emanuel · 22nd October 2015, 08:09 PM

Having hijacked Mercenary's thread enough (my apologies

), I moved discussion of Akbar's weapons specifically, here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20629

Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd October 2015, 09:41 PM

I am sorry to say that it will not happend again - a trip to Canada. I found it fantastic - but I hated the time of flying to Canada and over Canada to the west coast - thirteen hours of flying and about two hours of waiting.
So much more I regret not to have contacted you.
Jens

fernando · 22nd October 2015, 10:06 PM

Ah, the Niagara falls, the Royal Ontario Museum, the CN tower ... all fascinating

.

ariel · 22nd October 2015, 10:28 PM

Jens, I am located in Ann Arbor, a delightful college town 1 hour drive from Windsor, Ontario.
You are alway welcome.
On top of that, I can give you a long tour of all our local microbreweries:-)

Mercenary · 28th April 2016, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

[/i]Page 143. "The Emperor bestoved on the bridegroom [Sultan Sulaiman Shukoh, te eldest sone of Dara Shukoh][i] a robe of honour........a jewelled jamdhar with phul-katara........."

Lets say that phul-katara was the flowers like on the dagger in the midle. How can it then be explained that flowers like that can be placed on a jamdahar/katar? The only place I can think of, is chiselled on the blade, gilded and with gems inlaid. But we dont know if it was so.
Jens

Jamdhars with phul-katara:

Mercenary · 28th April 2016, 10:51 PM

Thanks a lot for such intolerant communication with me in this topic. Because of this I got to the end of researching in this not very important for me field.

Iranian and Mughal phul-katara:

22nd October 2015, 01:30 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Emanuel, in the Aziz book you mentioned the phul-katara, it is mentioned about ten times, here are a few quotes. Page 9. "Among the articles presented by Nur Jahan to Prince Shah Jahan on Thursday, the 27 Mirh (Xii ruling year), were a waisy-band studded with pearls, a sword with jewelled shoulder belt (paradala) and a phul-katara." Here the phul-katara stands alone, unlike in the other places where it is mentioned. Page 97. "WhenShah Shuja was sent on the Deccan expedition (22 Safar, 1043) he received a spaccil robe of honour with gold-worked Nadiri, a jewelled khapwa with phul-katara, a jewelled sword....." Page 143. "The Emperor bestoved on the bridegroom [Sultan Sulaiman Shukoh, te eldest sone of Dara Shukoh] a robe of honour........a jewelled jamdhar with phul-katara........." The plate you show in your last mail is from the Moser catalogue 1912. Lets say that phul-katara was the flowers like on the dagger in the midle. How can it then be explained that flowers like that can be placed on a jamdahar/katar? The only place I can think of, is chiselled on the blade, gilded and with gems inlaid. But we dont know if it was so. In the plate you showed from Arms and Jewellery there are three 'katars'. No 5. Jamdahar. Looking like most of the katars we know to day. no 10. Narsingh-moth. Blade narrow and curved. no 11. Katara. Side guards bend outwards, blade as broad as the ´hilt and curved. Here is a quote from page 53-54. "The katar or Katara is a beautiful weapon with handle similar to thar of the jamdhar, but the blade is much narrower and longer, and is curved. Irvin quotes the following from the translator of the Siyar: 'A poignard peculiar to India made with a hilt, whose two branches extend along the arm, so as to shelter the hand and part of the arm............ The total length is 2 or 2½ feet, one half of it being the blade." It is also mentioned in the text, no quoted, that the blade is very thick with two cutting edges, having a breadth of three inches at the hilt and a solid point of about one inch in breadth. The description above sounds more like a jamdhar, than a description of the two others. Maybe someone saw a katara, heard the name and forun that all daggers with such a hilt must have been named the same - or found it easier to do so. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 22nd October 2015 at 04:46 PM.

22nd October 2015, 08:09 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Having hijacked Mercenary's thread enough (my apologies ), I moved discussion of Akbar's weapons specifically, here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20629 Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 22nd October 2015 at 08:24 PM.

28th April 2016, 10:51 PM	#10
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Thanks a lot for such intolerant communication with me in this topic. Because of this I got to the end of researching in this not very important for me field. Iranian and Mughal phul-katara: Attached Images

22nd October 2015, 05:17 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jens, Simple answer is that I have no idea. A floral hilt on what we think of jamadhar with arm bars makes no sense. Like you say, we dont know if it was so. We have multiple terms in English translations apparently used interchangeably (katar, katara, khanjar, jamadhar, khapwa). We still don't know if the term referred to specific handle type, blade type, curvature, thickness, or entire ensemble. The use of these terms seems to have changed over time place. Maybe katara referred just to a narrow blade, slightly curved. Maybe not. Like most things, there were probably qualifiers to denote more specific uses (ex. slashing knife, stabbing knife, dagger, punch-dagger, etc...). Based on the sources at my disposal, my thinking was that the term phul-katara matched a dagger that has a narrow, piercing, slightly curved blade, and some form of major floral hilt. Could be jewelled or not. Ivory, or other material like jade/nephratite. Unless we go to the original texts and associate them with period illustrations, we know nothing Then again we have the Ain-i-Akbari in Urdu, and the Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri in Persian covering matters in the Mughal context. What do we have from the Rajputs? Emanuel

22nd October 2015, 06:11 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Emanuel, We dont have very much hiis early, and the drawings like the ones from Ani-Akbar would at best leave something to guessing. There is of course the description of the katar - katara/jamdhar/narsingh-moth. My guess is, that the Europeians choose one name for daggers with this kind of hilt - but this is purely guessing. The katars shown in the Akbar miniatures are clearly jamdahars, and I try to research this, as there is something funny/strange, but I am not prepared to discuss anything about it yet. A pity I did not contact you when I was in Toronto some years ago :-). Jens

22nd October 2015, 07:17 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	There are indeed some interesting things in those Akbar miniatures. I'm looking through the copies I found online and there is lots to extract and dissect. A pity indeed. Next time you come by our shores, please do drop a line Emanuel

22nd October 2015, 09:41 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I am sorry to say that it will not happend again - a trip to Canada. I found it fantastic - but I hated the time of flying to Canada and over Canada to the west coast - thirteen hours of flying and about two hours of waiting. So much more I regret not to have contacted you. Jens

22nd October 2015, 10:06 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ah, the Niagara falls, the Royal Ontario Museum, the CN tower ... all fascinating .

22nd October 2015, 10:28 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, I am located in Ann Arbor, a delightful college town 1 hour drive from Windsor, Ontario. You are alway welcome. On top of that, I can give you a long tour of all our local microbreweries:-)