On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

Mercenary · 20th October 2015, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

They are dagger ... with floral hilts. Some examples of these might have been jeweled,

I think that such daggers are very beautiful. Can I see some of them?
And be so kind what are you mean by "floral hilts"?

ariel · 21st October 2015, 03:58 AM

Floral hilt is a hilt with a flower ( or flowers) as its main decoration.

Mercenary · 21st October 2015, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Floral hilt is a hilt with a flower ( or flowers) as its main decoration.

O! I see! I have realised why at Jahangir court all the daggers were with phul-katara:
(pictures from Robert Hales's book)

Mercenary · 21st October 2015, 11:07 AM

More:

ariel · 21st October 2015, 01:09 PM

No need to exaggerate: I said " main decoration"
The upper panel would suffice.

Mercenary · 21st October 2015, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No need to exaggerate: I said " main decoration"
The upper panel would suffice.

Ok. So you think there are "phul-kattara" on the pictures with the upper panel?

Emanuel · 21st October 2015, 03:11 PM

Hi Mercenary,

We are working from two different translations of Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri (Memoirs of Jahangir). Not having access to the original text and not having a linguistic background, I cannot say which one is more correct. The translation I used indicated that phul katara can sometimes be jeweled and sometimes not.

For the Ain-i-Akbari, I used the plate from Egerton. A katara is clearly labelled.

Thank you for the excellent pictures. To clarify I would consider the bottom 3 and rightmost examples in the attached images as phul katara. The top of the hilt is clearly floral, and matches the examples in Elgood closely. Elgood used the words "gourd", "seedpod","leaves","flowers". He also comments that such hilts can be found in ivory and nephrite in some numbers and were obviously fashionable throughout the Rajput courts until later 18th-19th centuries.

There is no need to be confrontational about this topic. It was merely pointed out to you that your proof that "phul-katara" meant "wootz blade" is problematic. You derived that understanding from the similarity between the words phul=flower, with phulad (also transliterated as phulad or fulad or pulad)=steel. Then you tried to argue the relevance of this association with the use of plants in crucible steel production.

Again, Ann Feuerbach and other academics on the topic of crucible steel presented good arguments for the etymology of the word pulad (also known as bulad or bulat in Central Asia) as derived from Sanskrit for "purified iron":
पूत "pu" लोह "auha/loha" = pure/clean/purified iron.

That's all.

Emanuel

21st October 2015, 11:07 AM	#4
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	More: Attached Images

21st October 2015, 03:11 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Mercenary, We are working from two different translations of Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri (Memoirs of Jahangir). Not having access to the original text and not having a linguistic background, I cannot say which one is more correct. The translation I used indicated that phul katara can sometimes be jeweled and sometimes not. For the Ain-i-Akbari, I used the plate from Egerton. A katara is clearly labelled. Thank you for the excellent pictures. To clarify I would consider the bottom 3 and rightmost examples in the attached images as phul katara. The top of the hilt is clearly floral, and matches the examples in Elgood closely. Elgood used the words "gourd", "seedpod","leaves","flowers". He also comments that such hilts can be found in ivory and nephrite in some numbers and were obviously fashionable throughout the Rajput courts until later 18th-19th centuries. There is no need to be confrontational about this topic. It was merely pointed out to you that your proof that "phul-katara" meant "wootz blade" is problematic. You derived that understanding from the similarity between the words phul=flower, with phulad (also transliterated as phulad or fulad or pulad)=steel. Then you tried to argue the relevance of this association with the use of plants in crucible steel production. Again, Ann Feuerbach and other academics on the topic of crucible steel presented good arguments for the etymology of the word pulad (also known as bulad or bulat in Central Asia) as derived from Sanskrit for "purified iron": पूत "pu" लोह "auha/loha" = pure/clean/purified iron. That's all. Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 21st October 2015 at 03:49 PM.

21st October 2015, 03:58 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Floral hilt is a hilt with a flower ( or flowers) as its main decoration.

21st October 2015, 01:09 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No need to exaggerate: I said " main decoration" The upper panel would suffice.