On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

ariel · 17th October 2015, 02:57 PM

Alan,
There was no attempt to assign the blame for the " name game". In my defense, I didn't even know that you were the culprit:-)
But you have made my point very well: I qualified the requirements by mentioning " immersion in the contemporary atmosphere", and your example of "keris" names does it beautifully.
.
This is exactly the reason why IMHO the " name game" has to be played as part of the holistic approach to the overall study of weapons: it is a reflection of the societal view of them. We are in complete agreement.

And this is why it needs to be played by people like yourself, at least in the field of Javanese kerises.

Having read a boatload of books about ottoman-to-indian swords , I definitely know more about them than the rest of the University of Michigan faculty, students, their significant others and pets :-))))

However, I am completely unqualified to add anything new to the field beyond what can already be found in Stone, Pant and Elgood.

A rather silly example: I can proudly advance a hypothesis that Indian " kirach" or "kirich" is just a mis-pronounced Turkish " kilij", i.e. just a "sword". However, in the absense of even rudimentary knowledge of any "indian" language and phonetics such a "discovery" would be plainly laughable.

A. G. Maisey · 17th October 2015, 10:32 PM

Looks as if we're in agreement Ariel.

Your "kilij" is not an isolated example, SE Asian weaponry is full of such probable mispronunciations or misunderstandings.

Still, one thing continues to bother me, and that is the use of the term "name game" to refer to serious investigation, as well as to uninformed application of names for less than serious reasons by less than serious people.

Personally, I would much prefer the serious researchers to be carried in a separate bucket to that which contains people who want a name at any cost, so that the relevant item can be filed into the "correct" pigeonhole.

Emanuel · 19th October 2015, 10:01 PM

Hello,

Mercenary, leaving your "primary school little game" aside...

A variety of Sanskrit dictionaries define kattara as simply dagger:
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?s...e&direction=AU.

Kattara is not just the blade. In the 16th-17th Northern Indian context it appears to have been a court dagger worn in the sash with a narrow, piercing blade. This is also clear from the Ain-i-Akbari, which lists katara as a "long and narrow dagger".

I have not yet read your article, but here are additional sources to study.

The Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri (Memoirs of Jahangir) includes a number of references to the phul-kattara being gifted year after year at the New Year's feast. Sometimes it is noted as just a phul-katara, other times it is specifically qualified as a phul-katara studded with jewels.

The full text is accessible here in a variety of formats: https://archive.org/details/tuzukijahangirio00jahauoft and the text is searchable.

Some passages essentially repeating the same structure, with some variations:

Quote:

This idea was a very good one, and on this account, on the 6th of Day, at the hour fixed upon, I despatched him in happiness and triumph. I presented him with a qaba (outer coat) of gold brocade with jewelled flowers and pearls round the flowers, a brocaded turban with strings of pearls, a gold woven sash with chains of pearls, one of my private elephants called Fath Gaj, with trappings, a special horse, a jewelled sword, and a jewelled khapiva, with a phill katdra.

Quote:

Nur-Jahan Begam prepared a feast of victory for my son Shah Jahan, and conferred on him dresses of honour of great price, with a nadiri with embroidered flowers, adorned with rare pearls, a sarplch (turban ornament) decorated with rare gems, a turban with a fringe of pearls, a waistbelt studded with pearls, a sword with jewelled pardala (belt), a phul Jcatdra (dagger), a sada (?) of pearls, with two horses, one of which had a jewelled saddle, and a special elephant with two females.

Quote:

The next day I sent a phul-katara (dagger) studded with valuable jewels to Burhanpur to Khan Jahan.

Quote:

he waited on me, and presented as an offering 1,000 muhrs, 1,000 rupees, 4 rubies, 20 pearls, 1 emerald, and a jewelled phul katara, the total value being 50,000 rupees.

Additional translations of the text are available here:
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/m...0%26work%3D001

Quote:

On Yādgār ‘Alī there were bestowed a horse with a jewelled saddle, a jewelled sword, a vest without sleeves with gold embroidery, an aigrette with feathers and a jīgha (turban ornament), and 30,000 rupees in cash, altogether 40,000 rupees, and on Khān ‘Ālam a jewelled khapwa or phūl kaṭāra (a sort of dagger) with a pendant of royal pearls.

Quote:

My fortunate son, Shāh-Jahān, sent with him the brother of Afẓal K., his Diwan. As Qubu-l-mulk had shown attachment and desire to please, and repeatedly importuned me for a portrait, I presented him, at his request, with my likeness, a jewelled khapwa, and a phūl kaṭāra. 24,000 darb, a jewelled dagger, a horse, and a dress of honour were also given to the aforesaid Mīr Sharīf.

Elgood documented what was shown to him in Jaipur as phul katara. They are dagger with narrow piercing blades, with floral hilts. Some examples of these might have been jeweled, and some might have crucible steel blades.

I am well aware of the addition of a variety of plant material to the crucible loads to impart carbon to the iron. That does not mean flower dagger = wootz.

All the best,
Emanuel

Mercenary · 19th October 2015, 10:24 PM

))
THE JAHANGIRNAMA
Memoirs of Jahangir, Emperor of India
Translated, edited, and annotated by Wheeler M. Thackston
FREER GALLERY OF ART ® ARTHUR M. SACKLER GALLERY
S}nithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C.
in association witFi
OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS
New York ® Oxford

Quote:

jewel-studded khapwa with a phul-katara, p.148

Quote:

jewel-studded khapwa with a phul-katara, p.154

Quote:

a jeweled dagger with a phul-katara, p.180

Quote:

a jeweled khapwa with a phul-katara, p. 293

Quote:

a jeweled khapwa with a phul-katara, p.303

Quote:

a royal dagger with a phul-katara, p.394

Quote:

a jeweled khapwa with a phul-katara, p.429

Try more. Good luck!

Mercenary · 20th October 2015, 07:25 AM

Dear colleagues, just smile ))))

Mercenary · 20th October 2015, 11:44 AM

But I'm not kidding. Why in Ain-i-Akbari there are nothing information about the dagger "phul-katara", while it was an ordinary item for gift? And a very prestigious gift for the first persons? Although Abu-l Fazl says even about "karmahi" - very rare but real weapon?

ariel · 20th October 2015, 03:02 PM

First of all, not every weapon known to us by its ( presumed) name was mentioned in that book.
Second, this book listed weapons, not their modes of decoration.
No sense listing a dagger with a flower-like handle, since there must have been examples of the same dagger without it, or with handles of a variety of different styles.

Mercenary · 20th October 2015, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

They are dagger ... with floral hilts. Some examples of these might have been jeweled,

I think that such daggers are very beautiful. Can I see some of them?
And be so kind what are you mean by "floral hilts"?

ariel · 21st October 2015, 03:58 AM

Floral hilt is a hilt with a flower ( or flowers) as its main decoration.

Mercenary · 21st October 2015, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Floral hilt is a hilt with a flower ( or flowers) as its main decoration.

O! I see! I have realised why at Jahangir court all the daggers were with phul-katara:
(pictures from Robert Hales's book)

Mercenary · 21st October 2015, 11:07 AM

More:

20th October 2015, 07:25 AM	#5
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Dear colleagues, just smile )))) Attached Images

21st October 2015, 11:07 AM	#11
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	More: Attached Images

17th October 2015, 02:57 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alan, There was no attempt to assign the blame for the " name game". In my defense, I didn't even know that you were the culprit:-) But you have made my point very well: I qualified the requirements by mentioning " immersion in the contemporary atmosphere", and your example of "keris" names does it beautifully. . This is exactly the reason why IMHO the " name game" has to be played as part of the holistic approach to the overall study of weapons: it is a reflection of the societal view of them. We are in complete agreement. And this is why it needs to be played by people like yourself, at least in the field of Javanese kerises. Having read a boatload of books about ottoman-to-indian swords , I definitely know more about them than the rest of the University of Michigan faculty, students, their significant others and pets :-)))) However, I am completely unqualified to add anything new to the field beyond what can already be found in Stone, Pant and Elgood. A rather silly example: I can proudly advance a hypothesis that Indian " kirach" or "kirich" is just a mis-pronounced Turkish " kilij", i.e. just a "sword". However, in the absense of even rudimentary knowledge of any "indian" language and phonetics such a "discovery" would be plainly laughable.

17th October 2015, 10:32 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Looks as if we're in agreement Ariel. Your "kilij" is not an isolated example, SE Asian weaponry is full of such probable mispronunciations or misunderstandings. Still, one thing continues to bother me, and that is the use of the term "name game" to refer to serious investigation, as well as to uninformed application of names for less than serious reasons by less than serious people. Personally, I would much prefer the serious researchers to be carried in a separate bucket to that which contains people who want a name at any cost, so that the relevant item can be filed into the "correct" pigeonhole.

20th October 2015, 11:44 AM	#6
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	But I'm not kidding. Why in Ain-i-Akbari there are nothing information about the dagger "phul-katara", while it was an ordinary item for gift? And a very prestigious gift for the first persons? Although Abu-l Fazl says even about "karmahi" - very rare but real weapon?

20th October 2015, 03:02 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	First of all, not every weapon known to us by its ( presumed) name was mentioned in that book. Second, this book listed weapons, not their modes of decoration. No sense listing a dagger with a flower-like handle, since there must have been examples of the same dagger without it, or with handles of a variety of different styles.

21st October 2015, 03:58 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Floral hilt is a hilt with a flower ( or flowers) as its main decoration.