Kris question to the knowledgeables

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 09:15 PM

Thanks Rick, Alan's articles are a very good read and i get something more out of them everytime i read them.
Pusaka, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, but too much of it at once could kill a man.

I am not trying to be confrontational when i suggest you might be on the wrong track. I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread what my position is on this subject and the true difficulties that lie in the path of understanding the symbolism that may (or may not) lie behind the keris. Also, much time has already be devoted to this subject and you may find some answers in the archives. But as Mabagani points out, paths are different and could lead to different answers. You seem to want your answers in black & white and i am afraid it's not so cut and dry. You also seem to have already reached your own conclusions on the subject and i'm not so sure you would be open to my theories on the subject. I can tell you that i don't believe the symbolism of the keris is about war and conflict. I would highly recommend you read the articles which Rick has linked to (a few times really

) and draw your own conclusions.

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 09:53 PM

If you think I was suggesting that the keris symbolises war and conflict then you have misunderstood my message.
The keris (in my opinion) symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces. Balance, Order, unity. Man and a number of other things. I dont think that one answer can be universally applied to all keris because as you know there is too much diversity for that. All I was trying to do is give some answers. I have not already made up my decision about the symbolism, I am open to ideas and would love to hear others ideas on the matter.

Rick · 4th January 2006, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

If you think I was suggesting that the keris symbolises war and conflict then you have misunderstood my message.
The keris (in my opinion) symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces. Balance, Order, unity. Man and a number of other things. I dont think that one answer can be universally applied to all keris because as you know there is too much diversity for that. All I was trying to do is give some answers. I have not already made up my decision about the symbolism, I am open to ideas and would love to hear others ideas on the matter.

Have you read the two articles linked to in my post yet ?
Did you come into contact with the keris through silat ?

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 11:50 PM

Thanks Rick
I needed to read the links again too.
Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.

Pusaka · 5th January 2006, 01:21 AM

I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris.

Rick · 5th January 2006, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris.

I guess you must have me on your ignore list .

You may construct any suit of clothes that you wish to fit this cultural icon Pusaka but it does not necessarily mean that they are the correct ones .

Pusaka · 5th January 2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I guess you must have me on your ignore list .

You may construct any suit of clothes that you wish to fit this cultural icon Pusaka but it does not necessarily mean that they are the correct ones .

No I am not ignoring you. I Read the first one and will read the second one later when I get the time. In the first article there is no real evidence to prove that wavy blades were not around at the same time. Straight keris blades have always been more common then wavy blades. It dose not surprise me that the accounts are only of straight blades, and not many accounts as you can see.
As I said such wavy blades did exist in Vedic India so when India warriors arrived in Indonesia they would have had such weapons, may not be common but dose not mean there were none. Indonesians have two blades, one for common every day use and pusaka. I dont see why it could not have been the same back then.
Yes I know that there are hypothesis but the truth is this information is lost so you either forget about the whole thing and dont try to even understand the symbolism or you do your best to work it out. Someone mentioned that I am mixing in my Western way of thinking; actually I have studied eastern philosophy for some time now and know that everything I have said fits with an Eastern way of thinking. As many have said the keris is many things to many people and they dont all agree.

Personally I think that the problem will be solved with a trip to the Museum archives. To find the common Indian ancestor of these blades. I will do so when I get the time.

Rick · 5th January 2006, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

Thanks Rick
I needed to read the links again too.
Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.

You're welcome Mabagani , there is good fodder in those two pieces ; stuff that every person trying to understand the keris should read and refer back to on occasion .
Mr. Maisey is a virtual treasure trove of information and keris lore .

A half century of research and study cannot be just tossed aside .

5th January 2006, 01:21 AM	#5
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris. Attached Images

4th January 2006, 09:15 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks Rick, Alan's articles are a very good read and i get something more out of them everytime i read them. Pusaka, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, but too much of it at once could kill a man. I am not trying to be confrontational when i suggest you might be on the wrong track. I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread what my position is on this subject and the true difficulties that lie in the path of understanding the symbolism that may (or may not) lie behind the keris. Also, much time has already be devoted to this subject and you may find some answers in the archives. But as Mabagani points out, paths are different and could lead to different answers. You seem to want your answers in black & white and i am afraid it's not so cut and dry. You also seem to have already reached your own conclusions on the subject and i'm not so sure you would be open to my theories on the subject. I can tell you that i don't believe the symbolism of the keris is about war and conflict. I would highly recommend you read the articles which Rick has linked to (a few times really ) and draw your own conclusions.

4th January 2006, 09:53 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	If you think I was suggesting that the keris symbolises war and conflict then you have misunderstood my message. The keris (in my opinion) symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces. Balance, Order, unity. Man and a number of other things. I dont think that one answer can be universally applied to all keris because as you know there is too much diversity for that. All I was trying to do is give some answers. I have not already made up my decision about the symbolism, I am open to ideas and would love to hear others ideas on the matter.

4th January 2006, 11:50 PM	#4
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Thanks Rick I needed to read the links again too. Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.