On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The Hindus would also have different names for the same weapon, but that would likely have something to do with where in the country they lived, and which language they spoke.
Jens

Exactly! And when someone of European tourists of second half of 19th century heard some of local names and now we have to see it in albums and repeat it as mantra it is not serious.
But even more ridiculous when the tourist asked someone "What is it" and Indian seller answered "It is for cutting, crushing, killing..." so now we have a lot of confusion from "katar", "katari", "katara", "bank", "bichwa", "kirch" and so. I am not talking about that sometimes Indian weapon was called like the material from which it was made ))

[ariel]

To accomplish a serious study of the names of Indian weapons one needs to know a multitude of local languages and carefully go through mountains of primary sources. To make things even worse , one needs to verify the meaning of the name of each weapon through careful interrogation of its actual users, and there are none left.

I am very pessimistic about the outcome of this endeavor......

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

I am very pessimistic about the outcome of this endeavor......

But you can read that the others know. This is a normal process of learning.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Interesting idea about the meaning of the word 'phul'. I think it is worth researching it a bit to see if there anywhere else is evidence that support the idea.

Ariel is right, it will not be easy.
However a way in which it can be done, is to find the names used in Rajasthan at a certain time, both the Persian names but also the local Hindu names. This way the area is geographically bound.
Also one could start with a limited number of weapons.

Jens

[Mercenary]

I should not make excuses for my researches. I believe that only professional linguist can to prove something through the manipulation of languages and words.
But I am sure if someone is interesting in Indian culture and weapons he should be interested in something more than staring at the colorful albums. That is why I started my researches in Indian weaponry instead of talking on forums like "I am very pessimistic about my ... abilities".

Dear Jens
Only just for "a little bit to see":
phul = پھل = fruit, flower, blade, razor and so
फौल = Phūla = flower
फौलादा = Phaulādī = fulad (steel)

It is only one of the possible translations. But very interesting one ))

[Emanuel]

Hi Mercenary,

Difficult not to fall in the trap of phonetically similar words.

Have a look at Dr. Ann Feuerbach's summary on the research done to date on the word pulad:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=502

Emanuel

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Hi Mercenary,
Difficult not to fall in the trap of phonetically similar words.
Emanuel

Hi Emanuel
Why did you decide that it is any "phonetically similar words"?
It was said that the term Phaulādī is directly related with the word "flower". As well as the term "Phul" in "Phul-katara". What else? "Phul" means "fulad". It's obvious. Isn't it?

but years ago Robert Elgood showed me a manuscript, and if I remember correctly it was a glossery over the Indian weapon names.

You mean a table with lines of weapons from the Jaipur museum? I translated it. I specifically went there from time to time in three years. Nothing particularly interesting. All daggers are "choree", all sabres are "tulwar". But there are some interesting moments. I will work on it.

You all are right to say that the terms that we now have in respected books in the main are the confusion of the languages. This is what I write in my article about. But it is not just confusion of nouns and names. It is also mix of verbs)))

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Have a look at Dr. Ann Feuerbach's summary on the research done to date on the word pulad:

O! I have realized what the problem is. I am sorry. It is not your fault. In India a lot of curators of museums and sekligarhs consider that pulad is फौलादा (Phaulādī). That is fact.

[ariel]

Dear Mercenary:
I would just humbly suggest to read the first paragraph of the page 9 from Elgood's book on Jaipur collection. One may learn why in Rajastan the khanjar is chhurri and the Kard is Chaqu.
Also , his book about Hindu weapons informs us that Bichwa is Bichwa in Mysore and Hyderabad , but Baku in Kannada and Vinchu in Marathi.

And, BTW, Portugese version of the origin of Indian Pata traces it to the ( surprise, surprise!) Portugese word for paw:-)

Studying origin of words and names is a province of linguistics. This, by definition, requires fluent ( or, at the very least, working ) knowledge of the languages in question.

In the absense thereof, one is doomed to compile the already known bits and pieces from older publications. Rather boring, isn't it? Staring at colorful albums is more productive and original in comparison: at least one may have a chance to see something new and heretofore unappreciated:-)

But if that what tickles your fancy, good luck to you!

[Jim McDougall]

Actually, as one whose 'fancy is tickled' by virtually all aspects of the study of not just the arms and armour of India, but all, I must say that I am always delighted to see serious interest in pursuing topics such as this.
I wholeheartedly encourage these endeavors, and am always optimistic in active and constructive research and discussion in hopes that previously unknown facts might unfold.

As can be seen, the 'name game' (as we often affectionately refer to this aspect of arms research) has been an often approached subject, with the excellent comments and examples as well as positive perspective in the entries of most here.

Very much looking forward to development of this topic, and as always, to learning more on these things together here.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

And, BTW, Portugese version of the origin of Indian Pata traces it to the ( surprise, surprise!) Portugese word for paw:-)...

Let me also vote for surprise that not for probability. Indeed paw in portuguese is pata; with accentuation on the first 'a'.
I don't know how wide this attribution is spread out there; i find it, for one, in the (bilingual) work Rites of Power by Dr. Caravana, a phisician and collector. However he cares to write that the term will possibly be connected to such Portuguese terminology. Even so, a surprising assumption from his part, once one of his menthors and supplier, Rainer Raehnhardt, pretends that the term Pata ( quote: ) comes from the Patãs (Pathan), one of several divisions of the Xátria (Kchatrya) cast.

[Mercenary]

Let's continue

Originally Posted by ariel

Dear Mercenary:
book about Hindu weapons informs us that Bichwa is Bichwa in Mysore and Hyderabad , but Baku in Kannada and Vinchu in Marathi.
But if that what tickles your fancy, good luck to you!

Very nice. But they are just various names of arachnids. The name of the dagger was written and sounded some different as "Bichū'ā" not as "Bichū" (for example in Panjabi) and ment the verb "to sting", "to damage". So "Bichū'ā" could be any dagger. For example:

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Dear Mercenary:
And, BTW, Portugese version of the origin of Indian Pata traces it to the ( surprise, surprise!) Portugese word for paw:-)
But if that what tickles your fancy, good luck to you!

Again very interesting!
But pata without any surprises first of all meant "wooden rapier". And there are a lot of information about pata-khilana and so )))

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

But if that what tickles your fancy, good luck to you!

Ariel, thank you a lots! Good luck!