Kris question to the knowledgeables

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one

If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female,
The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other.

I just need to point out again Pusaka, that the original keris form is NOT the wavy blade of which you speak, but a straight one. In fact most keris are straight (perhaps 2 in 3), so this back and forth dualist explanation doesn't really fly.
I think that as long as you are tying the keris and it's origins in with silat then this a a very appropriate place to discuss the origins of silat. I personally think the keris is much older than silat and that forms of keris fighting that are taught in silat are relatively new. So i wonder if there is any written evidence (old manuals, mention in old texts, etc.) that can make the connection between silat and the keris in ancient times.

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 12:37 AM

Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?

Well, i'd have to see the carvings. There certainly are a whole lote of straight edged weapons out there.

Can you suggest a place to see photographs of these carvings or possibly post some?

MABAGANI · 4th January 2006, 12:49 AM

I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

nechesh · 4th January 2006, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

Thanks, i've seen that book for sale, i'll have to look into it.

Pusaka · 4th January 2006, 12:55 AM

One other thing I would like to draw your attention to is that the Keris handle although it has been defaced it still has the original symbolic meaning, A man slightly bent over, hands resting on his stomach in meditation.

Rick · 4th January 2006, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

One other thing I would like to draw your attention to is that the Keris handle although it has been defaced it still has the original symbolic meaning, A man slightly bent over, hands resting on his stomach in meditation.

There are myriad styles of ukiran ; I don't think this theory really holds water .

This form that you refer to is called Jawa Demam or fevered man .
What does this have to do with the original topic we are discussing here anyway ?

Let's get back on that topic , shall we .

VANDOO · 4th January 2006, 05:08 AM

THE QUESTION IS WHICH CAME FIRST THE KERIS OR THE KRIS, I THINK THE KERIS! THEN THE LARGER FORM KRIS EVOLVED FROM IT. DID IT EVOLVE TO A LARGER SIZE IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE ADVENT OF ISLAM OR AFTER.
I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME.

AS IN MOST OCEANIC SOCIETYS THERE WERE PROBABLY VERY FEW IRON OR STEEL TOOLS OR WEAPONS IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE COMING OF THE HINDU ,ISLAM, CHRISTIAN SPANISH AND AMERICAN POWERS. ONLY THE TOP MEN IN AREAS WHERE FORIGN TRADERS CAME WERE LIKELY TO HAVE HAD THEM.
I SUSPECT THE MEANING OF THE ELEPHANT TRUNK AND OTHER CARVINGS WOULD BE MORE EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY GROUPS WHO HAVE NOT CHANGED RELIGION, CUSTOMS OR LIFE STYLE IF ANY SUCH GROUP EXHISTS. I DO THINK THAT THE HINDU BELIEFS AND ANSWERS PREDATE THE FULL DEVELOPMENT OF THE KRIS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST UNDER THE RULES OF ISLAM. THE WAY OF MAKEING KRIS WOULD HAVE CONTINUED AS THAT WAS THE TRADITIONAL WAY THEY HAD ALWAYS BEEN MADE AND WHAT MADE THEM SUCH GOOD WEAPONS. I HAVE ALSO NOTICED SOME DAYAK SWORDS RESEMBLE SOME USED BY THE NAGA TRIBES IN INDIA AND BURMA SO INFLUENCE DEFINITELY CAME INTO THE REGION AT A EARLY TIME.

DISCLAIMER (THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT WITH NO HARD FACTS TO BACK IT UP BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE LOGICAL WAY FOR THINGS TO HAVE HAPPENED.) MENTIONING ONE RELIGION IS RISKY AND I HAVE MENTIONED THREE

I HOPE NO ONE TAKES OFFENCE AS NONE IS INTENDED.

4th January 2006, 12:55 AM	#6
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	One other thing I would like to draw your attention to is that the Keris handle although it has been defaced it still has the original symbolic meaning, A man slightly bent over, hands resting on his stomach in meditation. Attached Images

4th January 2006, 12:37 AM	#2
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?

4th January 2006, 12:49 AM	#4
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

4th January 2006, 05:08 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE QUESTION IS WHICH CAME FIRST THE KERIS OR THE KRIS, I THINK THE KERIS! THEN THE LARGER FORM KRIS EVOLVED FROM IT. DID IT EVOLVE TO A LARGER SIZE IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE ADVENT OF ISLAM OR AFTER. I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME. AS IN MOST OCEANIC SOCIETYS THERE WERE PROBABLY VERY FEW IRON OR STEEL TOOLS OR WEAPONS IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE COMING OF THE HINDU ,ISLAM, CHRISTIAN SPANISH AND AMERICAN POWERS. ONLY THE TOP MEN IN AREAS WHERE FORIGN TRADERS CAME WERE LIKELY TO HAVE HAD THEM. I SUSPECT THE MEANING OF THE ELEPHANT TRUNK AND OTHER CARVINGS WOULD BE MORE EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY GROUPS WHO HAVE NOT CHANGED RELIGION, CUSTOMS OR LIFE STYLE IF ANY SUCH GROUP EXHISTS. I DO THINK THAT THE HINDU BELIEFS AND ANSWERS PREDATE THE FULL DEVELOPMENT OF THE KRIS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST UNDER THE RULES OF ISLAM. THE WAY OF MAKEING KRIS WOULD HAVE CONTINUED AS THAT WAS THE TRADITIONAL WAY THEY HAD ALWAYS BEEN MADE AND WHAT MADE THEM SUCH GOOD WEAPONS. I HAVE ALSO NOTICED SOME DAYAK SWORDS RESEMBLE SOME USED BY THE NAGA TRIBES IN INDIA AND BURMA SO INFLUENCE DEFINITELY CAME INTO THE REGION AT A EARLY TIME. DISCLAIMER (THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT WITH NO HARD FACTS TO BACK IT UP BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE LOGICAL WAY FOR THINGS TO HAVE HAPPENED.) MENTIONING ONE RELIGION IS RISKY AND I HAVE MENTIONED THREE I HOPE NO ONE TAKES OFFENCE AS NONE IS INTENDED.