Pirate swords and weapons

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2015, 09:23 PM

Indeed, it has been a most phenomenal realization in the most recent studies of these pirates, Blackbeard in particular, that the romanticized notions are very different than what they were really like.

Blackbeard, and probably a number of his crew were suffering from a number of STD's from their depredations, with Mr. Beard having been quite the womanizer possibly the most prevalent. His actions in these last days sought more than treasure..medicine.....and these horrendous tools and 'medicines' were his primary goal .

The Queen Annes Revenge as has been discussed has been mostly recognized as the wreck there in this location, however as always thee is some skepticism. In the early days after its discovery, I developed a line of communication with one of the divers, and of course my main objective was to find swords. It became a long standing gag between us that they kept finding cannon, but no swords. Of course, as the ship was abandoned, the prospects for anything as portable as a sword being found were negligible.
I do remember in later years, the 'politics' in the project became quite an issue, and my contact left the project.

It is always unfortunate that those of us who find vicarious adventure and historical excitement in these finds often end up disappointed as the usual traits of such things are tainted by commercialism and other circumstances which become necessary to support them. Still, we hold dearly to whatever measure of truth and reality can be preserved amidst the flotsam.

M ELEY · 27th September 2015, 10:05 PM

Amen, Jim, to controversy when it comes to wreck diving, claims on who owns it, authenticity. Glad to hear from you, Jim. You have a PM-

kronckew · 29th January 2023, 08:50 AM

Things come back to haunt you. My earlier page 1 post of a brass gripped pirate sword Jim thought might be Chinese is sort of confirmed. I'll post it in a new thread.

David R · 29th January 2023, 11:53 AM

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

werecow · 29th January 2023, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

Nice beladah belabang / parang nabur... I like this blade type. Reminds me of the Michiel de Ruyter nimcha.

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2023, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

This was a fantastic thread!!! and so good to see again.
I had not recalled these parang nabur, which were of course quite probably used in 'the pirate round' as they were distinctly of cutlass type.

Can you say more on provenance and proven pirate assoc?

Well understand this being a prize in any collection!!

David · 30th January 2023, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

Indeed a lovely beladah belabang and i understand why you prize it. But what makes it an accredited "Pirate Sword". Accredited by whom. Do we have actual historical references pointed to the use of these swords by pirates in the region. I ask not to be confrontational, but because i would like to know.

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2023, 07:51 PM

The 'pirate' trope as applied to most edged weapons is of course typically apocryphal. Pirates were notoriously poor record keepers, and there were no 'regulation' weapons (just 'guidelines'

Naturally we need to also specify 'which' pirates we are considering for association with a certain weapon, or indeed 'form' of weapon. If they were 'Caribbean' region, it is most unlikely that these Asian weapons would be found, unless an anomaly brought in by someone as a souvenir or trophy from those Asian areas.

The woodcut illustrations well known in popular culture from the well known pirate tales are of course, not particularly likely to be accurate.
I am still fond of the popular pirate tales, but also of learning more on just how much is fact and how much is fiction.
The thing is, while we find that much of this lore is well embellished and not necessarily accurate, yet often we find fascinating elements which are sometimes even more exciting that the original story.

I agree, we should strive for references which support the use of a certain weapon or form in a 'pirate' context, while of course allowing ourselves the joy of thinking,
"maybe, just maybe, it might have been' .
In our speaking openly on the weapon, that is the manner we should view it, until hopefully one day, some obscure evidence is revealed that can empirically prove its provenance or use as surmised.
I have been fortunate to have had numbers of weapons for decades which I stubbornly held onto, in which that very thing occurred.

kai · 1st February 2023, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Indeed a lovely beladah belabang and i understand why you prize it. But what makes it an accredited "Pirate Sword". Accredited by whom. Do we have actual historical references pointed to the use of these swords by pirates in the region. I ask not to be confrontational, but because i would like to know.

Banjarmasin was a very busy trade port. In contrast to London, I'm not aware of any sponsorship for pirate-like activities by the local nobility...

Actually, the red beladah belabang (stained with "dragon blood") could well be considered a regulation weapon as it was worn by the outer perimeter palace guards.

The shape of the (by western standards short) blade and the adopted hand guard seem to fit the western notion of a pirate sword quite well and arguably should also work well in a melee on board of a ship. I haven't seen any historical account confirming "naval" use though.

Actually, I have to plead guilty myself: When my son was 4 or 5 years old and asked me to show a pirate sword, I pulled out my BB as the most suitable piece from my collection. A reproduction crafted from cardboard/tape/paint served its purpose perfectly...

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 2nd February 2023, 05:00 AM

[QUOTE=kai
Actually, the red beladah belabang (stained with "dragon blood") could well be considered a regulation weapon as it was worn by the outer perimeter palace guards.[/QUOTE]

Like this.

Maurice · 25th February 2025, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Indeed a lovely beladah belabang and i understand why you prize it. But what makes it an accredited "Pirate Sword". Accredited by whom. Do we have actual historical references pointed to the use of these swords by pirates in the region. I ask not to be confrontational, but because i would like to know.

The early Borneo expeditions (early 1800's, just after the VOC had been abolished), had as goals of occupying Borneo:
1: Confirming the Dutch flag and offering protection to sovereigns who requested it;
2: Subdue sea plunder by pirates, promote trade, and give peace and tranquility to the many regions where robbers and murderers beset weak nations with calamities.
3: Collect moderate taxes to provide revenue for the government and subsistence for the subjects.

It is point two, mentioned above we have to take in account.
The coastal areas of Borneo where a hotbed of pirates and piracy.
As we know, the beladah belabangs where manufactured (made) in South Borneo, the Bandjemasin area, to be specific in Negara. In Bandjermasin a lot of trade was going on! And there sure were some pirates trading or selling their trophies.

The attached photos give some food for thought:-)

One photo had been made in 1894/1895 by Schadee in the Landak area (NW Borneo). You see a bunch of lovely(?) people, with on the right a man wearing a Beladah Belabang. (Also notice the sundang on the left).

The other photo is a photo of the online database of the Scheepvaartmuseum, collectionnumber S.4543, pirate sword 1825-1850.
(mention the BB blade)...

There is also an old style Beladah Belabang in the Bronbeek collection known, captured from a pirate around 1850, during a raid against piracy in the seas south of the Philipines. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to place a photo here, which I have to ask first.

Maurice · 25th February 2025, 12:34 PM

Just had contact with John, and I'm allowed to place a photo from the pirate sword from the Bronbeek (in Arnhem) collection.
Captured from 'Alima Baba, uit het Soloschen archipel'.

gp · 25th February 2025, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

The early Borneo expeditions (early 1800's, just after the VOC had been abolished), had as goals of occupying Borneo:
1: Confirming the Dutch flag and offering protection to sovereigns who requested it;
2: Subdue sea plunder by pirates, promote trade, and give peace and tranquility to the many regions where robbers and murderers beset weak nations with calamities.
3: Collect moderate taxes to provide revenue for the government and subsistence for the subjects.

It is point two, mentioned above we have to take in account.
The coastal areas of Borneo where a hotbed of pirates and piracy.
.

the thought which comes to my mind and perhaps not so a strange thought...with regard to item 2:

for the population and peoples in that part of the world, were not we, the ones from Europe, actually pirates and robbers....?
And concerning " sovereigns ": were they not "bought" and left in their positions and thus allowed the Dutch, English and French to do their (colonial) mischief...? Which was specially a proven policy in the Indonesian archipelago by the VOC and their successor...

Nevertheless then just like now there were and are indeed quite some pirates active...

Beautiful sword from Bronbeek; which museum is a place highlý to be recommended to visit, although the Dutch government wants to close this historical treasure sadly...
It has items and data from the earliest times till the end of WW II and Indonesia's independence.
Most interesting to see there all the diversity of data, items, pictures and cold weapons

https://www.bronbeek.nl/museum

29th January 2023, 11:53 AM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,120	A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic). Attached Images

30th January 2023, 07:51 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	The 'pirate' trope as applied to most edged weapons is of course typically apocryphal. Pirates were notoriously poor record keepers, and there were no 'regulation' weapons (just 'guidelines' Naturally we need to also specify 'which' pirates we are considering for association with a certain weapon, or indeed 'form' of weapon. If they were 'Caribbean' region, it is most unlikely that these Asian weapons would be found, unless an anomaly brought in by someone as a souvenir or trophy from those Asian areas. The woodcut illustrations well known in popular culture from the well known pirate tales are of course, not particularly likely to be accurate. I am still fond of the popular pirate tales, but also of learning more on just how much is fact and how much is fiction. The thing is, while we find that much of this lore is well embellished and not necessarily accurate, yet often we find fascinating elements which are sometimes even more exciting that the original story. I agree, we should strive for references which support the use of a certain weapon or form in a 'pirate' context, while of course allowing ourselves the joy of thinking, "maybe, just maybe, it might have been' . In our speaking openly on the weapon, that is the manner we should view it, until hopefully one day, some obscure evidence is revealed that can empirically prove its provenance or use as surmised. I have been fortunate to have had numbers of weapons for decades which I stubbornly held onto, in which that very thing occurred. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 31st January 2023 at 04:04 AM.

2nd February 2023, 05:00 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Dragon Blood [QUOTE=kai Actually, the red beladah belabang (stained with "dragon blood") could well be considered a regulation weapon as it was worn by the outer perimeter palace guards.[/QUOTE] Like this. Attached Images

25th February 2025, 12:34 PM	#12
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	Just had contact with John, and I'm allowed to place a photo from the pirate sword from the Bronbeek (in Arnhem) collection. Captured from 'Alima Baba, uit het Soloschen archipel'. Attached Images

27th September 2015, 09:23 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	Indeed, it has been a most phenomenal realization in the most recent studies of these pirates, Blackbeard in particular, that the romanticized notions are very different than what they were really like. Blackbeard, and probably a number of his crew were suffering from a number of STD's from their depredations, with Mr. Beard having been quite the womanizer possibly the most prevalent. His actions in these last days sought more than treasure..medicine.....and these horrendous tools and 'medicines' were his primary goal . The Queen Annes Revenge as has been discussed has been mostly recognized as the wreck there in this location, however as always thee is some skepticism. In the early days after its discovery, I developed a line of communication with one of the divers, and of course my main objective was to find swords. It became a long standing gag between us that they kept finding cannon, but no swords. Of course, as the ship was abandoned, the prospects for anything as portable as a sword being found were negligible. I do remember in later years, the 'politics' in the project became quite an issue, and my contact left the project. It is always unfortunate that those of us who find vicarious adventure and historical excitement in these finds often end up disappointed as the usual traits of such things are tainted by commercialism and other circumstances which become necessary to support them. Still, we hold dearly to whatever measure of truth and reality can be preserved amidst the flotsam.

27th September 2015, 10:05 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,165	Amen, Jim, to controversy when it comes to wreck diving, claims on who owns it, authenticity. Glad to hear from you, Jim. You have a PM-

29th January 2023, 08:50 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	Things come back to haunt you. My earlier page 1 post of a brass gripped pirate sword Jim thought might be Chinese is sort of confirmed. I'll post it in a new thread.