Saudi Saifs

Lee · 7th September 2015, 05:43 PM

Thank you again!

I agree entirely that the gold koftari inscription is more recent than the blade itself. It appears to lie in a very shallow depression with a hatched surface to allow the gold to adhere. It does not appear to be new, however; would it be likely it is early 20th century en suite with the Arabian mountings or is it more likely some fakery added well after the swords 'working life?'

I also agree that this blade has been etched since its departure from Arabia, presumably to enhance visibility of the wootz pattern (but not by me). The main blade surface remains quite smooth and fine dark pigmented material is liberated upon each oiling. Very unfortunately, residues of the etchant likely remained on the blade (very important to neutralize and remove this) and then got transferred to the scabbard, leading to some later rusting. Nothing deep and not correctable by a (culturally appropriate, per above) restoration to a bright polish, though I'll just try to keep it oiled and otherwise leave it alone.

Miguel · 7th September 2015, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Thank you again!

I agree entirely that the gold koftari inscription is more recent than the blade itself. It appears to lie in a very shallow depression with a hatched surface to allow the gold to adhere. It does not appear to be new, however; would it be likely it is early 20th century en suite with the Arabian mountings or is it more likely some fakery added well after the swords 'working life?'

I also agree that this blade has been etched since its departure from Arabia, presumably to enhance visibility of the wootz pattern (but not by me). The main blade surface remains quite smooth and fine dark pigmented material is liberated upon each oiling. Very unfortunately, residues of the etchant likely remained on the blade (very important to neutralize and remove this) and then got transferred to the scabbard, leading to some later rusting. Nothing deep and not correctable by a (culturally appropriate, per above) restoration to a bright polish, though I'll just try to keep it oiled and otherwise leave it alone.

Hi Lee
Nice thing and great thread, one that I will refer to when I unearth a similar weapon I have in my collection. Thanks for sharing. Miguel

estcrh · 7th September 2015, 07:08 PM

Lee, thanks for sharing your sword, great photography, I learned some things from your post, the details of the fittings are amazing, someone put a lot of time into it. Any photography tips would be appreciated.

Lee · 18th September 2015, 03:58 PM

A. alnakkas, Jens, estcrh - thank you for your kind comments on my evolving photographic technique.

The greatest step forward came a few years ago when I invested in a Canon 5D which gave me a fairly fast sensor and a finely detailed image.

For the first couple of years I would take pictures on overcast days in my driveway - this gave a nice diffuse light, but usually the sessions would be cut short by the raindrops.

The driveway operation became untenable as I needed to photograph Lew's collection during winter and so I cobbled together the below studio around an old copy stand:

Jens Nordlunde · 18th September 2015, 04:07 PM

Lee,
You not only have a beatiful home, you also have a very good photostudio.
Thank you for posting the picture, and please add it to the thread - How to photograph - or whatever it is called. It may give others good ideas of how to make a studio.
Thank you very much
Jens

Miguel · 16th October 2015, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Lee
Nice thing and great thread, one that I will refer to when I unearth a similar weapon I have in my collection. Thanks for sharing. Miguel

Finally unearthed my Saif which until this thread I thought was a Persian Shamshir but from the info contained in the thread I now think that it is in the Saudi style having an Ottoman style scabbard with silver fittings Unfortunately the decoration is worn and the end of the chape is missing otherwise it is in pretty good shape for its age which I think is 19thC. You will notice that there is a ring on one Quillon and one should have been on the end of the pommel but has obviously broken off. I think that silver chains may have once been attached but are now lost, I have seen these in in photos of Saifs and wonder why some have them and others don't also why are the hilts always bound with wire between the Qillons and the bone grips which makes it look like they have been repaired?
Miguel

A.alnakkas · 16th October 2015, 05:03 PM

Hey Miguel, Can you take close ups of the chape?

This is a 20th century piece, early 20th century to be exact and likely made by Sulaiman ibn Bani... Though let me look at the chape and see how its like.

The 19th century saif looked different with a hilt similar to Syrian design.

Lotfy

A.alnakkas · 16th October 2015, 09:33 PM

With regards to the quillon ring and the one usually find on the pommel, sometimes it can be mismatched, with quillons having a ring and the pommel without. This is due to quillons made from casting silver that is then polished into shape. Also, the reuse of old parts is possible, although the only living maker I contacted did not mention any of that and his creations are all consistent.

Miguel · 17th October 2015, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

With regards to the quillon ring and the one usually find on the pommel, sometimes it can be mismatched, with quillons having a ring and the pommel without. This is due to quillons made from casting silver that is then polished into shape. Also, the reuse of old parts is possible, although the only living maker I contacted did not mention any of that and his creations are all consistent.

Hi A.alnakkas, Thank you for your informative reply. You can see on the pommel end the remains of a stub which I think was where the ring was but I do get your point. With regard to the photos of the chape I apologise for their quality which is mainly due to me and my camera.
Regards Miguel

Miguel · 17th October 2015, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi A.alnakkas, Thank you for your informative reply. You can see on the pommel end the remains of a stub which I think was where the ring was but I do get your point. With regard to the photos of the chape I apologise for their quality which is mainly due to me and my camera.
Regards Miguel

Hi, me again. Since posting I've noticed what may be an inscription on one edge of the scabbard throat piece and attached a photo for your infoRegards Miguel

18th September 2015, 03:58 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Slowly getting there A. alnakkas, Jens, estcrh - thank you for your kind comments on my evolving photographic technique. The greatest step forward came a few years ago when I invested in a Canon 5D which gave me a fairly fast sensor and a finely detailed image. For the first couple of years I would take pictures on overcast days in my driveway - this gave a nice diffuse light, but usually the sessions would be cut short by the raindrops. The driveway operation became untenable as I needed to photograph Lew's collection during winter and so I cobbled together the below studio around an old copy stand: Attached Images

7th September 2015, 05:43 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Thank you again! I agree entirely that the gold koftari inscription is more recent than the blade itself. It appears to lie in a very shallow depression with a hatched surface to allow the gold to adhere. It does not appear to be new, however; would it be likely it is early 20th century en suite with the Arabian mountings or is it more likely some fakery added well after the swords 'working life?' I also agree that this blade has been etched since its departure from Arabia, presumably to enhance visibility of the wootz pattern (but not by me). The main blade surface remains quite smooth and fine dark pigmented material is liberated upon each oiling. Very unfortunately, residues of the etchant likely remained on the blade (very important to neutralize and remove this) and then got transferred to the scabbard, leading to some later rusting. Nothing deep and not correctable by a (culturally appropriate, per above) restoration to a bright polish, though I'll just try to keep it oiled and otherwise leave it alone.

7th September 2015, 07:08 PM	#3
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Lee, thanks for sharing your sword, great photography, I learned some things from your post, the details of the fittings are amazing, someone put a lot of time into it. Any photography tips would be appreciated.

18th September 2015, 04:07 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Lee, You not only have a beatiful home, you also have a very good photostudio. Thank you for posting the picture, and please add it to the thread - How to photograph - or whatever it is called. It may give others good ideas of how to make a studio. Thank you very much Jens

16th October 2015, 05:03 PM	#7
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Miguel, Can you take close ups of the chape? This is a 20th century piece, early 20th century to be exact and likely made by Sulaiman ibn Bani... Though let me look at the chape and see how its like. The 19th century saif looked different with a hilt similar to Syrian design. Lotfy

16th October 2015, 09:33 PM	#8
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	With regards to the quillon ring and the one usually find on the pommel, sometimes it can be mismatched, with quillons having a ring and the pommel without. This is due to quillons made from casting silver that is then polished into shape. Also, the reuse of old parts is possible, although the only living maker I contacted did not mention any of that and his creations are all consistent.