13th century sword mystery

[Jim McDougall]

I think this is a remarkably fascinating aspect of these medieval swords, from the earliest inscriptions and inlaid names etc of earlier examples to the later copies and commemorative style applications. It is one of the most esoteric factions of arms study, and probably one of the least attended to and most avoided academically, due primarily to the highly subjective nature of the subject matter.

While most interested in these early swords likely pursue their own degree of study on these esoteric topics quite privately, and as can be seen here, most typically avoid any open discussion on them. There are of course varied studies which have been undertaken by some of the key figures in arms scholarship, but these are seemingly stalled at point, and are seldom ever brought into any sort of furthering or advancement condition .

Here we have the British Museum asking for ideas on discovering the meaning of the inscription on this sword, as if it was a new find. In reality, this is just one of a number of swords found in the River Witham, and each with similar cryptic inscriptions, and these finds go back to 1788 as well as through the 19th century. When Oakeshott wrote his seminal work "The Archaeology of Weapons" in 1960, there was not much more perspective on these inscriptions than today. While even then, he and others could recognize many of the religious invocations and may of the symbols and devices, there is virtually zero advancement among arms scholarship with respect to the presence of magical and occult symbolism in these kinds of inscriptions.

I consider this a very regrettable circumstance reflecting the situation in the study of arms, but one becoming more prevalent as general attitudes with political correctness issues affecting museums and such holdings, and the trend toward more casual interaction in arms oriented venues such as forums. I write with results of my seemingly relentless researching on these fascinating subjects, and always hope there will be others who share this enthusiasm to advance the disposition of our collective knowledge on them.
I always appreciate the well reasoned and learned entries of Fernando in many entries on these subjects, as well as the continued enthusiasm and tenacity of Ibrahiim in his efforts to create viable discussions here.

While I have little expectation that further discourse will ensue on this sword or the topic in general, I wanted to enter another soliloquy to express my personal view on these matters. I would have very much welcomed ideas or perspectives on the curious inscriptions seen on this sword and others like it on these pages, but clearly these are not forthcoming. Personally, there have been some good observations.......such as the 'M' which is indeed upside down.....the nature of some of the characters which seem aesthetically aligned toward magical alphabets, as well as the potential for numeric values even Hebrew lettering. All of these certainly worth review and discussion.
My research has been intense and gets more intriguing as I learn more on these topics, and has been so since I was first inspired by this post. I hope others have been equally moved even if we do not see such entries here, as even if we cannot solve this mystery wholly, the study of it will certainly benefit those of us who find this fascinating.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think this is a remarkably fascinating aspect of these medieval swords, from the earliest inscriptions and inlaid names etc of earlier examples to the later copies and commemorative style applications. It is one of the most esoteric factions of arms study, and probably one of the least attended to and most avoided academically, due primarily to the highly subjective nature of the subject matter.

While most interested in these early swords likely pursue their own degree of study on these esoteric topics quite privately, and as can be seen here, most typically avoid any open discussion on them. There are of course varied studies which have been undertaken by some of the key figures in arms scholarship, but these are seemingly stalled at point, and are seldom ever brought into any sort of furthering or advancement condition .

Here we have the British Museum asking for ideas on discovering the meaning of the inscription on this sword, as if it was a new find. In reality, this is just one of a number of swords found in the River Witham, and each with similar cryptic inscriptions, and these finds go back to 1788 as well as through the 19th century. When Oakeshott wrote his seminal work "The Archaeology of Weapons" in 1960, there was not much more perspective on these inscriptions than today. While even then, he and others could recognize many of the religious invocations and may of the symbols and devices, there is virtually zero advancement among arms scholarship with respect to the presence of magical and occult symbolism in these kinds of inscriptions.

I consider this a very regrettable circumstance reflecting the situation in the study of arms, but one becoming more prevalent as general attitudes with political correctness issues affecting museums and such holdings, and the trend toward more casual interaction in arms oriented venues such as forums. I write with results of my seemingly relentless researching on these fascinating subjects, and always hope there will be others who share this enthusiasm to advance the disposition of our collective knowledge on them.
I always appreciate the well reasoned and learned entries of Fernando in many entries on these subjects, as well as the continued enthusiasm and tenacity of Ibrahiim in his efforts to create viable discussions here.

While I have little expectation that further discourse will ensue on this sword or the topic in general, I wanted to enter another soliloquy to express my personal view on these matters. I would have very much welcomed ideas or perspectives on the curious inscriptions seen on this sword and others like it on these pages, but clearly these are not forthcoming. Personally, there have been some good observations.......such as the 'M' which is indeed upside down.....the nature of some of the characters which seem aesthetically aligned toward magical alphabets, as well as the potential for numeric values even Hebrew lettering. All of these certainly worth review and discussion.
My research has been intense and gets more intriguing as I learn more on these topics, and has been so since I was first inspired by this post. I hope others have been equally moved even if we do not see such entries here, as even if we cannot solve this mystery wholly, the study of it will certainly benefit those of us who find this fascinating.

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your kind words and observations on this very important subject. I would add that if I was concocting a syllabus upon European Ethnographic Arms and Armour this entire sector would command a large part of the "foundation course" I can think of no more important an area than the Mediaeval period in this regard. The inscriptions on blades takes on another dimension and undoing the puzzle is a fascinating study ..

This is a journey back through time and without waxing lyrical it soars through history and mythical legendary time zones until it disappears into the realms of magic and mystique..Yet it is there that the journey began and in some ways that we seek here at Forum..(where I think we owe the subject a fair hearing)...I find it amazing that Arthurian legend was in fact legend and truth mixed and hundreds of years after Excalibur it was still the tradition to throw ones sword...often named.... into the deepest pool.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Lee]

Thank you gentlemen, I always enjoy discussions about medieval swords. Always.

There were a couple of links to offprints of worthwhile articles in Gladius on the subject of inscriptions on European medieval swords:

How to make swords talk...

Christian Invocation Inscriptions...

[Hotspur]

Thoughts about the inscription from others

Some think it may say, in ancient Welsh, "No Cover shall be over me." as though it was never meant to be scabarded, always out and ready to fight.
From the discussion at various links.


Interesting

Not unlike what we see of later terms such as
"No me saques sin razon; no me enbaines sin honor"
"Draw me not without reason; sheath me not without honor"

It is also not unlike some biblical scripture, which is what many are considering. Gloat not over me my enemy, etc

Cheers

GC

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Thoughts about the inscription from others

Some think it may say, in ancient Welsh, "No Cover shall be over me." as though it was never meant to be scabarded, always out and ready to fight.
From the discussion at various links.


Interesting

Not unlike what we see of later terms such as
"No me saques sin razon; no me enbaines sin honor"
"Draw me not without reason; sheath me not without honor"

It is also not unlike some biblical scripture, which is what many are considering. Gloat not over me my enemy, etc

Cheers

GC

Salaams Hotspur ...Yes it could be old Welsh but...as the report goes on to say...there is more to this than meets the eye.

Please see http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2015/08/can...ear-old-sword/

For example the W from one persons perspective wrote..


Quote ''Any symbology that might appear on that side is very important. From an alphabet perspective, I was immediately struck by the inclusion of the letter W as it wasn’t in general use in that form until some point during the 14th century when it began shifting from begin written as the the digraph to being written as the ligature more frequently as the 15th and 16th centuries approached. I don’t think I would have stopped if it weren’t in the form it is in. In the early versions of the W ligature it is most commonly written as two V’s whose legs cross over each other. Time and scribal laziness eventually eliminate the crossed sections for ease of writing. This particular W letter form has an apex that is half the height of the arms of the W letter suggesting that the engraving was added nearer the 15 or 16th century. It is important to note that the W letter form is used natively in: German, Dutch, English, Welsh, Polish, Walloon and Maltese.

Most romance languages including the Latin of the day did not use the W.
One particularly interesting note, from Marc van Hasselt of Utrecht University’s Hastatus Heritage Consultancy, explained how similar swords have been found all over Europe, bearing similarly inscrutable phrases. According to Hasselt, it seems the “most likely” that the inscriptions are in Latin, though:

Using the excellent research by Thomas Wagner and John Worley, an image of a hugely successful medieval workshop was created, making ‘magical’ swords for the elite. The swords themselves are of a high quality, but what most catches the eye are the inscriptions. Both their mysterious contents and the similarities in the lettering are striking. A sword from Sweden might use the same slightly curved X as the River Witham sword. A sword currently in Berlin has an I-S contraction also used on a sword found in the Netherlands. These similarities go so far as to suggest the same hand in making the inscriptions.

However, their contents are still a mystery, regardless of their origins".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Hotspur]

Hello Ibrahiim

I think I post on the train of thought that a simple phrase the most likely translation we will find.

I agree with Lee on his impression that the sword is not unlikely to be of a later century. While Oakeshott lists this sword as a type X, it is truly as easily placed in a type XVI category, or even a tweener of a XIV, or XVII for that matter. I believe it is in Oakeshott's later book (Age of Chivalry) he starts to question his own earlier categorizing and dating. I'll be honest, I own only his first title and Records, on which all now seem to attribute "truth" to this particular sword. I look at this sword and see it easily 14th if not even 15th century work.

My own focus of swords is a mere few decades of early modern swords, and further narrowed to eagle pommel swords of the US market. As many times as types and origins of those have been pigeonholed, not just trends but reuse of favored styles often need reassessment.

As to prettier and emblazoned swords belonging to the rich and famous, of course. A peasant grade sword in England during the XIVth century could be had for a few weeks wages if a freeman. Also by that time, barrels of blades imported, manifested and registered and taxed in the port of London. So many arms and armour imported into England that there was concern and laws made restricting trade by the XVth century. In that regard, I see no great mystery that a sword found in an English river (inscribed or not) mirrors swords found on the continent.

Cheers

GC

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Hello Ibrahiim

I think I post on the train of thought that a simple phrase the most likely translation we will find.

I agree with Lee on his impression that the sword is not unlikely to be of a later century. While Oakeshott lists this sword as a type X, it is truly as easily placed in a type XVI category, or even a tweener of a XIV, or XVII for that matter. I believe it is in Oakeshott's later book (Age of Chivalry) he starts to question his own earlier categorizing and dating. I'll be honest, I own only his first title and Records, on which all now seem to attribute "truth" to this particular sword. I look at this sword and see it easily 14th if not even 15th century work.

My own focus of swords is a mere few decades of early modern swords, and further narrowed to eagle pommel swords of the US market. As many times as types and origins of those have been pigeonholed, not just trends but reuse of favored styles often need reassessment.

As to prettier and emblazoned swords belonging to the rich and famous, of course. A peasant grade sword in England during the XIVth century could be had for a few weeks wages if a freeman. Also by that time, barrels of blades imported, manifested and registered and taxed in the port of London. So many arms and armour imported into England that there was concern and laws made restricting trade by the XVth century. In that regard, I see no great mystery that a sword found in an English river (inscribed or not) mirrors swords found on the continent.

Cheers

GC

Yes I agree it could be of a later century as detailed in my previous post in particular regarding the W detail...in paragraph 1 and 2 and I also line up with the possibility of it being linked to swords found on the continent in paragraph 3... noted in my previous post taken mainly from the website http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2015/08/can...ear-old-sword/