Indian Tulwar

sirupate · 27th July 2015, 10:02 PM

Thank you for the superb info Jens and Jim.

Jim it may be that Shakudo came via Egypt and Greece and the possible transfer of these alloys to Japan through India and China, from a PDF article online;

Dr. Cóilín Ó*Dubhghaill
Senior Research Fellow, Art and Design Research Centre
Dr. A. H. Jones
Senior Research Fellow, Materials and Engineering Research Institute
Sheffield Hallam University
Sheffield, UK

It is unclear exactly when the development of the shakudo alloy took place. It seems possible that it was developed in Japan from yamagane, or unrefined copper, which naturally had other impurities such as arsenic and gold, and could be patinated to a dark brown color. Craddock and Giumlia-Mair suggest an alternative origin, describing alloys similar to shakudo in Egypt and Greece dating from the mid-second millennium BC, and the possible transfer of these alloys to Japan through India and China.1 The name shakudo first appeared in Japanese archives in the Nara period (710-784)2 while the oldest existing shakudo piece in Japan, dating from 1164

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2015, 10:26 PM

Sirupate, thank you for the additional information on shakudo!
I had no idea it extended that far into antiquity and in those civilizations.
My only familiarity came from references on smallswords using this type of motif. Naturally the decoration on Indian sword hilts has its own complexities, but I could not resist noting the similarity.

sirupate · 27th July 2015, 10:38 PM

I vaguely remembered that in one of my books on Japanese swords there being the belief that shakudo came from elsewhere, so I just googled it, it is a very good article as it happens, but I have no idea how to post PDF on here.
I must say the knowledge that you and Jens have is just incredible, many thanks Simon

Ian · 27th July 2015, 10:55 PM

Sirupate:

I think it helps, Simon, if we can all take a look at the article you mentioned and know what it is that we are discussing. Attached is a PDF copy of what I believe to be that article. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

I am reminded of a recent discussion on copper alloys with regard to the use of samrit ("auspicious alloy") in a recent SE Asian thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=samrit).

Ian.

Attached reference: O'DUBHGHAILL, C. & JONES, A.H. Japanese irogane alloys and patination—a study of production and application. Available from Sheffield Hallam University Research Archive (SHURA) at: http://shura.shu.ac.uk/971/

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27th July 2015, 10:02 PM	#1
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Thank you for the superb info Jens and Jim. Jim it may be that Shakudo came via Egypt and Greece and the possible transfer of these alloys to Japan through India and China, from a PDF article online; Dr. Cóilín Ó*Dubhghaill Senior Research Fellow, Art and Design Research Centre Dr. A. H. Jones Senior Research Fellow, Materials and Engineering Research Institute Sheffield Hallam University Sheffield, UK It is unclear exactly when the development of the shakudo alloy took place. It seems possible that it was developed in Japan from yamagane, or unrefined copper, which naturally had other impurities such as arsenic and gold, and could be patinated to a dark brown color. Craddock and Giumlia-Mair suggest an alternative origin, describing alloys similar to shakudo in Egypt and Greece dating from the mid-second millennium BC, and the possible transfer of these alloys to Japan through India and China.1 The name shakudo first appeared in Japanese archives in the Nara period (710-784)2 while the oldest existing shakudo piece in Japan, dating from 1164

27th July 2015, 10:26 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Sirupate, thank you for the additional information on shakudo! I had no idea it extended that far into antiquity and in those civilizations. My only familiarity came from references on smallswords using this type of motif. Naturally the decoration on Indian sword hilts has its own complexities, but I could not resist noting the similarity.

27th July 2015, 10:38 PM	#3
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	I vaguely remembered that in one of my books on Japanese swords there being the belief that shakudo came from elsewhere, so I just googled it, it is a very good article as it happens, but I have no idea how to post PDF on here. I must say the knowledge that you and Jens have is just incredible, many thanks Simon