Pirate swords and weapons

Rick · 27th July 2015, 01:51 PM

Ships of that era were ballasted with stone for the most part .
The marks could possibly have been added later and I suppose forensic archaeology might be able to reveal such .
I would not like to cast aspersions on those involved in its recovery .

Maybe it could be a pig of lead which would be melted and used for small arms shot ?

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2015, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Ships of that era were ballasted with stone for the most part .
The marks could possibly have been added later and I suppose forensic archaeology might be able to reveal such .
I would not like to cast aspersions on those involved in its recovery .

Maybe it could be a pig of lead which would be melted and used for small arms shot ?

Thanks Rick,
It does seem of course that ballast was usually of some sort of disposable commodity, which could be exchanged for the weight of cargo on return trip. I can see large blocks of lead used for shot etc. but again, why would assay, owners marks and the tax stamps be there (there was no 'Royal fifth' on lead was there?).
I agree, for all Mr. Clifford has done in adding so much to the wealth of history and artifacts recovered, it seems unfortunate that he should be discredited by these politically charged organizations.
All the best
Jim

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2015, 05:22 AM

My curiosity as always compelled me to keep looking into this, as I wondered more on why this 'ingot' would be taken for lead ballast.
As Rick has noted, it seems more common that indeed stone or gravel was used, but as I found more:
In 17th century England lead ingots for ships hold ballast were indeed made; those called 'big pigs' were of 63 bs. weight....there were smaller ones of 32 lbs, accordingly called 'small pigs'.
Apparently the shapes of these ballast ingots could identify nationality of ship in some degree,
English: had a boat like structure, flat front, convex sides
Spanish: rectangular
French: salmon (?) shape

(from: "Underwater and Maritime Archaeology in Latin America"
M. Leshikar-Denton and Erraguerena, 2008)

This bar presented by Clifford is 50 kg. (110 lbs) far larger and heavier than ballast 'pigs', also, again, why would there be the tax, assay markings as seen on ingots of precious metal?

It seems that eyewitness accounts of the sinking of the 'Adventure Galley' in 1698, it was near the spot where it had been careened. As it was sinking it was thoroughly looted and stripped of everything, including cannon.

Clifford had begun dives and excavations in the bay at Isle Saint Marie in 2000, but the wreck they worked on turned out to be Condent's "Fiery Dragon" as confirmed by materials such as Chinese pottery fragments etc.
He apparently found and excavated from 13 wrecks. The one he located the ingot from he believes to be the 'Adventure Galley'.

In the wreck which turned out to be the 'Fiery Dragon', there were piles of ballast STONE ("X Marks the Spot: The Archaeology of Piracy" , Skowronek& Ewen, 2006, p.112).

Since these new discoveries were in May this year, it is unclear what sort of context was found regarding ballast in this location, but the claims that what was found was port construction rubble rather than ship structural elements sounds very suspect. Clearly Mr. Clifford would know the difference.
It indeed appears that ballast 'stones' were in use rather than any lead 'pigs' although Condent' ship was burned and sank in 1721. Regardless, in the case of the 'Adventure Galley', why would a single 'pig of ballast be the only one found. Ballast mounds, regardless of material, typically remain as a single mass. A lead weight of this unusually large and heavy size, suggesting others with it if indeed ballast, would certainly not be swept away by currents.

The 'lore' of Captain Kidd's treasure has fueled the search for lost pirate treasure for centuries, and writers such as Edgar Allen Poe and Robert Louis Stevenson based much of their famed stories on it. There have been countless schemes and innovative syndications etc aligned with romantic optimisms of this 'treasure', which in reality is probably just lore. However, it does not seem infeasible, that a single silver ingot, may just have been overlooked from perhaps deep in the hold of Kidd's hopelessly worn out ship as it sunk.

Rick · 28th July 2015, 06:09 AM

If I were looking for Kidd's treasure here's where I'd look .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardin...d#Captain_Kidd

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2015, 06:25 PM

Exactly Rick!
Actually it is well known that Kidd did bury 'some' amount of loot, I believe coinage, at a location on Gardiners Island, and that was I believe recovered soon after he was arrested.
He was probably one of the only authentic instances (known) of a pirate actually burying 'treasure'. This notion seems to have escalated into legend from this. I believe that Kidd made overtures to having left treasure at some secret location so as to induce his captors to allow his release to obtain it .
However, this was clearly not taken too seriously, at least outwardly, though some covertly made their own efforts toward locating it.

Toward the middle of the 19th c these tales of Kidd's treasure had become legendary, just as did this most unlikely pirate. There were people all over the northeast, especially in New York areas, who became self styled treasure hunters with all manner of bizarre twists and occult and mystical methods .
The family of noted Mormon Faith founder Joseph Smith were known to have dabbled in this pursuit, and the writers Poe and Stevenson knew of and were inspired by these tales.
Even the fabled Oak Island has become a suggested location for this supposed 'treasure' long since disproven.

As most seasoned treasure hunters often admit, in many ways, the treasure is in the hunt itself! But then, wouldn't it be nice if !.....?????

ulfberth · 28th July 2015, 07:10 PM

To make the pirates feel at home ....

ulfberth · 28th July 2015, 07:22 PM

and a workshop for pirates: how to make a cannon

28th July 2015, 07:10 PM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	To make the pirates feel at home .... Attached Images

28th July 2015, 07:22 PM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	and a workshop for pirates: how to make a cannon Attached Images

27th July 2015, 01:51 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Ships of that era were ballasted with stone for the most part . The marks could possibly have been added later and I suppose forensic archaeology might be able to reveal such . I would not like to cast aspersions on those involved in its recovery . Maybe it could be a pig of lead which would be melted and used for small arms shot ?

28th July 2015, 05:22 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	My curiosity as always compelled me to keep looking into this, as I wondered more on why this 'ingot' would be taken for lead ballast. As Rick has noted, it seems more common that indeed stone or gravel was used, but as I found more: In 17th century England lead ingots for ships hold ballast were indeed made; those called 'big pigs' were of 63 bs. weight....there were smaller ones of 32 lbs, accordingly called 'small pigs'. Apparently the shapes of these ballast ingots could identify nationality of ship in some degree, English: had a boat like structure, flat front, convex sides Spanish: rectangular French: salmon (?) shape (from: "Underwater and Maritime Archaeology in Latin America" M. Leshikar-Denton and Erraguerena, 2008) This bar presented by Clifford is 50 kg. (110 lbs) far larger and heavier than ballast 'pigs', also, again, why would there be the tax, assay markings as seen on ingots of precious metal? It seems that eyewitness accounts of the sinking of the 'Adventure Galley' in 1698, it was near the spot where it had been careened. As it was sinking it was thoroughly looted and stripped of everything, including cannon. Clifford had begun dives and excavations in the bay at Isle Saint Marie in 2000, but the wreck they worked on turned out to be Condent's "Fiery Dragon" as confirmed by materials such as Chinese pottery fragments etc. He apparently found and excavated from 13 wrecks. The one he located the ingot from he believes to be the 'Adventure Galley'. In the wreck which turned out to be the 'Fiery Dragon', there were piles of ballast STONE ("X Marks the Spot: The Archaeology of Piracy" , Skowronek& Ewen, 2006, p.112). Since these new discoveries were in May this year, it is unclear what sort of context was found regarding ballast in this location, but the claims that what was found was port construction rubble rather than ship structural elements sounds very suspect. Clearly Mr. Clifford would know the difference. It indeed appears that ballast 'stones' were in use rather than any lead 'pigs' although Condent' ship was burned and sank in 1721. Regardless, in the case of the 'Adventure Galley', why would a single 'pig of ballast be the only one found. Ballast mounds, regardless of material, typically remain as a single mass. A lead weight of this unusually large and heavy size, suggesting others with it if indeed ballast, would certainly not be swept away by currents. The 'lore' of Captain Kidd's treasure has fueled the search for lost pirate treasure for centuries, and writers such as Edgar Allen Poe and Robert Louis Stevenson based much of their famed stories on it. There have been countless schemes and innovative syndications etc aligned with romantic optimisms of this 'treasure', which in reality is probably just lore. However, it does not seem infeasible, that a single silver ingot, may just have been overlooked from perhaps deep in the hold of Kidd's hopelessly worn out ship as it sunk.

28th July 2015, 06:09 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	If I were looking for Kidd's treasure here's where I'd look . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardin...d#Captain_Kidd

28th July 2015, 06:25 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Exactly Rick! Actually it is well known that Kidd did bury 'some' amount of loot, I believe coinage, at a location on Gardiners Island, and that was I believe recovered soon after he was arrested. He was probably one of the only authentic instances (known) of a pirate actually burying 'treasure'. This notion seems to have escalated into legend from this. I believe that Kidd made overtures to having left treasure at some secret location so as to induce his captors to allow his release to obtain it . However, this was clearly not taken too seriously, at least outwardly, though some covertly made their own efforts toward locating it. Toward the middle of the 19th c these tales of Kidd's treasure had become legendary, just as did this most unlikely pirate. There were people all over the northeast, especially in New York areas, who became self styled treasure hunters with all manner of bizarre twists and occult and mystical methods . The family of noted Mormon Faith founder Joseph Smith were known to have dabbled in this pursuit, and the writers Poe and Stevenson knew of and were inspired by these tales. Even the fabled Oak Island has become a suggested location for this supposed 'treasure' long since disproven. As most seasoned treasure hunters often admit, in many ways, the treasure is in the hunt itself! But then, wouldn't it be nice if !.....?????