Research

Ian · 26th July 2015, 05:16 AM

As someone who spent 40+ years of my professional life engaged in "academic research," I believe that research is simply the methods by which we acquire new knowledge. The final goal is to arrive at a better understanding of the issue. One line of scientific research requires that we propose an hypothesis and then test it to determine whether or not it is likely to be false (and therefore possibly true)--this is the hypothetico-deductive form of reasoning that is de rigeur for the physical, chemical and biological sciences. A second approach is empirical research, which emphasizes collecting as much data as possible on a subject and then trying to make sense of it by looking for associations and grouping of various pieces of information. Empiricism tends to be decried by "true scientists" because it relies on inductive reasoning.

Unfortunately, for so many of us, we are not in a position (not enough time, money, or training) to undertake rigorous field investigations of our hobby. One person who comes to mind who has undertaken solid scholarly research efforts is Robert Elgood, but folks like him are few in our field.

I would suggest that cataloging the various items in our collections is not really research. It makes us somewhat better informed but it seldom enlightens the field. We are not making new discoveries, but rather rediscovering what others have already reported. That is helpful and enlightening for us, and maybe for others, but I would not call it research.

In nearly 50 years of collecting edged weapons, I doubt that I have made more than a handful of astute original observations about them. Everything else I know has been the result of reading or listening to people who have more experience than I do. I would say that listening carefully to knowledgeable individuals within and outside the cultures that make the weapons of my interest has been the most important source of information for me. Some of my scientific colleagues say that this is unsubstantiated hearsay, others say it is good ethnographic research. Several of my best friends are anthropologists, and they understand the difficulties in doing solid research on weapons.

I don't think it is a bad thing that much of what we discuss here is "show and tell." If that's what the active membership wants, then that's what it gets. Also, trying to find out the what, where, when and how of the weapons we collect is only natural for the avid collector. The overall expertise here helps provide those answers.

However, I do agree with Alan when he says that the Forum has lost a little of its solidly based discussions, such as those on wootz steel (to name one example), that were present a decade or so ago. One solution may be for some of our very experienced members to write more articles that Lee can publish on these pages.

If you look at the statistics of who is using the forum (on the home page of this site), you will see that, of those logged on at any one time, registered members account for only about 10% of those looking at these pages--the substantial majority are visitors. Perhaps some of those who are not members could help make our discussions more factual by becoming members and participating actively. I can think of several folks whose opinions would be very helpful in our discussions, but they choose not to do so.

Ultimately, the output of this Forum depends on the input of its participants.

Ian.

kahnjar1 · 26th July 2015, 06:27 AM

As a collector currently of (mainly) Islamic arms.....(My collecting has been thru many changes over the years)......I have found this Forum a mine of information which is not generally available from other collectors in the region where I live. Added to that is a small but useful library of related books.
My research is certainly more basic than some, but I do like to find out as much information as possible about any item I have in my collection.
Sometimes a post querying an item meets with silence even though the post has been viewed many times. I am not entirely sure why this is.....lack of interest?......not sure about that, otherwise why would one bother to view? Perhaps the viewer does not think that the information he has is valuable.
I believe that in this game, ALL information is valuable, as it raises discussion, and that is how results are achieved IMHO.
Also I am more than well aware that there are no experts out there. We are all still learning, and need to analyse the information coming our way, to sort out fact from fiction. Don't be afraid to publish your thoughts please.

A word to the young and up coming collectors.....PLEASE, PLEASE glean all the information that you can now, as many of those who post here, myself included, are probably getting on in years, and unless the information is passed on now, it will be gone for ever. If you have questions, ask them now.
Stu

A. G. Maisey · 26th July 2015, 09:02 AM

"show & tell" is a catchy little phrase that many, if not most, people couple with junior school. This is probably an accurate alignment of ideas, but my use of it in my earlier post does not imply any denigration at any level.

If S&T is what people want to do and want to see, it has its own value.

I've spent in excess of 60 years in keris study, both field work and looking at the work of other people. It would be reasonable to assume I know a little bit about keris, and yes, I do, but really only Javanese keris, and Balinese keris in so far as they impact on Javanese keris. The stream of "show & tell' items that I meet with in this forum assist my knowledge of keris types of which I have only slight knowledge.

So:- nothing wrong with S&T.

But it would be really nice if we could sometimes see a few more perceptive questions, or well stated disagreements.

As David has written:- "--- asking the right questions can be almost as valuable as providing the right answers---"

The foundations of my profession rest upon the construction of questions that will provide the "right answers". I'm an auditor. Constructing the right question can be incredibly difficult. I've struggled frequently in trying to get a question just exactly right. Questions are not easy, they can be extraordinarily difficult to frame. But it would be nice to see a few piercing questions in our Forums, from time to time.

Some months ago I published an article that looked at areas of Javanese keris knowledge that had never been previously touched upon. I expected that it would generate a storm of disagreement and protest. It has now been read by a good cross section of keris conscious people. I have yet to hear anything except nice, friendly compliments. It is a trimmed down version of my original article, and because of this, I , myself, can find holes in it. But it seems nobody else can. To me, this is disappointing.

Thus, when Ian suggests that we write articles so that those articles can generate discussion, I am not really convinced that too many people are prepared to read, think, and question. I feel that most people read for entertainment only.

carlos · 26th July 2015, 09:21 AM

Sometimes the research is very difficult by the language. The most information in books and in web is in english. My level of english is low. To me is more easy read than write.
I try to contribute to forum sharing my pieces and sometimes I tried to answer some post.
I,m very happy to be a forum member. The forum and some books are my main research.
Thanks
Carlos

26th July 2015, 05:16 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,398	As someone who spent 40+ years of my professional life engaged in "academic research," I believe that research is simply the methods by which we acquire new knowledge. The final goal is to arrive at a better understanding of the issue. One line of scientific research requires that we propose an hypothesis and then test it to determine whether or not it is likely to be false (and therefore possibly true)--this is the hypothetico-deductive form of reasoning that is de rigeur for the physical, chemical and biological sciences. A second approach is empirical research, which emphasizes collecting as much data as possible on a subject and then trying to make sense of it by looking for associations and grouping of various pieces of information. Empiricism tends to be decried by "true scientists" because it relies on inductive reasoning. Unfortunately, for so many of us, we are not in a position (not enough time, money, or training) to undertake rigorous field investigations of our hobby. One person who comes to mind who has undertaken solid scholarly research efforts is Robert Elgood, but folks like him are few in our field. I would suggest that cataloging the various items in our collections is not really research. It makes us somewhat better informed but it seldom enlightens the field. We are not making new discoveries, but rather rediscovering what others have already reported. That is helpful and enlightening for us, and maybe for others, but I would not call it research. In nearly 50 years of collecting edged weapons, I doubt that I have made more than a handful of astute original observations about them. Everything else I know has been the result of reading or listening to people who have more experience than I do. I would say that listening carefully to knowledgeable individuals within and outside the cultures that make the weapons of my interest has been the most important source of information for me. Some of my scientific colleagues say that this is unsubstantiated hearsay, others say it is good ethnographic research. Several of my best friends are anthropologists, and they understand the difficulties in doing solid research on weapons. I don't think it is a bad thing that much of what we discuss here is "show and tell." If that's what the active membership wants, then that's what it gets. Also, trying to find out the what, where, when and how of the weapons we collect is only natural for the avid collector. The overall expertise here helps provide those answers. However, I do agree with Alan when he says that the Forum has lost a little of its solidly based discussions, such as those on wootz steel (to name one example), that were present a decade or so ago. One solution may be for some of our very experienced members to write more articles that Lee can publish on these pages. If you look at the statistics of who is using the forum (on the home page of this site), you will see that, of those logged on at any one time, registered members account for only about 10% of those looking at these pages--the substantial majority are visitors. Perhaps some of those who are not members could help make our discussions more factual by becoming members and participating actively. I can think of several folks whose opinions would be very helpful in our discussions, but they choose not to do so. Ultimately, the output of this Forum depends on the input of its participants. Ian.

26th July 2015, 06:27 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	As a collector currently of (mainly) Islamic arms.....(My collecting has been thru many changes over the years)......I have found this Forum a mine of information which is not generally available from other collectors in the region where I live. Added to that is a small but useful library of related books. My research is certainly more basic than some, but I do like to find out as much information as possible about any item I have in my collection. Sometimes a post querying an item meets with silence even though the post has been viewed many times. I am not entirely sure why this is.....lack of interest?......not sure about that, otherwise why would one bother to view? Perhaps the viewer does not think that the information he has is valuable. I believe that in this game, ALL information is valuable, as it raises discussion, and that is how results are achieved IMHO. Also I am more than well aware that there are no experts out there. We are all still learning, and need to analyse the information coming our way, to sort out fact from fiction. Don't be afraid to publish your thoughts please. A word to the young and up coming collectors.....PLEASE, PLEASE glean all the information that you can now, as many of those who post here, myself included, are probably getting on in years, and unless the information is passed on now, it will be gone for ever. If you have questions, ask them now. Stu

26th July 2015, 09:02 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	"show & tell" is a catchy little phrase that many, if not most, people couple with junior school. This is probably an accurate alignment of ideas, but my use of it in my earlier post does not imply any denigration at any level. If S&T is what people want to do and want to see, it has its own value. I've spent in excess of 60 years in keris study, both field work and looking at the work of other people. It would be reasonable to assume I know a little bit about keris, and yes, I do, but really only Javanese keris, and Balinese keris in so far as they impact on Javanese keris. The stream of "show & tell' items that I meet with in this forum assist my knowledge of keris types of which I have only slight knowledge. So:- nothing wrong with S&T. But it would be really nice if we could sometimes see a few more perceptive questions, or well stated disagreements. As David has written:- "--- asking the right questions can be almost as valuable as providing the right answers---" The foundations of my profession rest upon the construction of questions that will provide the "right answers". I'm an auditor. Constructing the right question can be incredibly difficult. I've struggled frequently in trying to get a question just exactly right. Questions are not easy, they can be extraordinarily difficult to frame. But it would be nice to see a few piercing questions in our Forums, from time to time. Some months ago I published an article that looked at areas of Javanese keris knowledge that had never been previously touched upon. I expected that it would generate a storm of disagreement and protest. It has now been read by a good cross section of keris conscious people. I have yet to hear anything except nice, friendly compliments. It is a trimmed down version of my original article, and because of this, I , myself, can find holes in it. But it seems nobody else can. To me, this is disappointing. Thus, when Ian suggests that we write articles so that those articles can generate discussion, I am not really convinced that too many people are prepared to read, think, and question. I feel that most people read for entertainment only.

26th July 2015, 09:21 AM	#4
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 751	Sometimes the research is very difficult by the language. The most information in books and in web is in english. My level of english is low. To me is more easy read than write. I try to contribute to forum sharing my pieces and sometimes I tried to answer some post. I,m very happy to be a forum member. The forum and some books are my main research. Thanks Carlos