Pirate swords and weapons

M ELEY · 25th July 2015, 04:45 AM

Wow! I wasn't aware of that. Yes, controversial, but still a fascinating fellow. Kind of like a pirate, eh?

Rick · 25th July 2015, 06:24 AM

What can I say, but aarrr .

M ELEY · 25th July 2015, 08:11 AM

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2015, 06:24 AM

Gav,
Thank you for reviving this thread, it doesn't seem that long ago!
It's always great to see these topics brought current when new material comes up.......in this case in the form of an ingot!

As Rick notes........this aint no ballast!!!
Why would a block of ballast have assayers stamps, and all the other pertinent markings and devices placed on precious metal ingots??
I think the only issue is how to prove that this ingot belonged to Kidd's Adventure Galley, when there were a good number of other pirate vessels frequenting Isle Sainte Marie.

The kinds of marks in groupings correspond to many of those found on the Atocha (1622) ingots by Mel Fisher's group.

It sure sounds like the UNESCO folks have problems with Mr. Clifford, but who knows what the circumstances are, and it seems more than unlikely that he would contrive these findings given his reputation.
It would appear that most of these finds and maritime discoveries end up with far more political strife than anything comparable on terra firma.

Congratulations to our own resident 'Brother of the Sea' on the recent publication of his long awaited novel!!! Bravo Cap'n Mark!!!

Rick · 27th July 2015, 01:51 PM

Ships of that era were ballasted with stone for the most part .
The marks could possibly have been added later and I suppose forensic archaeology might be able to reveal such .
I would not like to cast aspersions on those involved in its recovery .

Maybe it could be a pig of lead which would be melted and used for small arms shot ?

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2015, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Ships of that era were ballasted with stone for the most part .
The marks could possibly have been added later and I suppose forensic archaeology might be able to reveal such .
I would not like to cast aspersions on those involved in its recovery .

Maybe it could be a pig of lead which would be melted and used for small arms shot ?

Thanks Rick,
It does seem of course that ballast was usually of some sort of disposable commodity, which could be exchanged for the weight of cargo on return trip. I can see large blocks of lead used for shot etc. but again, why would assay, owners marks and the tax stamps be there (there was no 'Royal fifth' on lead was there?).
I agree, for all Mr. Clifford has done in adding so much to the wealth of history and artifacts recovered, it seems unfortunate that he should be discredited by these politically charged organizations.
All the best
Jim

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2015, 05:22 AM

My curiosity as always compelled me to keep looking into this, as I wondered more on why this 'ingot' would be taken for lead ballast.
As Rick has noted, it seems more common that indeed stone or gravel was used, but as I found more:
In 17th century England lead ingots for ships hold ballast were indeed made; those called 'big pigs' were of 63 bs. weight....there were smaller ones of 32 lbs, accordingly called 'small pigs'.
Apparently the shapes of these ballast ingots could identify nationality of ship in some degree,
English: had a boat like structure, flat front, convex sides
Spanish: rectangular
French: salmon (?) shape

(from: "Underwater and Maritime Archaeology in Latin America"
M. Leshikar-Denton and Erraguerena, 2008)

This bar presented by Clifford is 50 kg. (110 lbs) far larger and heavier than ballast 'pigs', also, again, why would there be the tax, assay markings as seen on ingots of precious metal?

It seems that eyewitness accounts of the sinking of the 'Adventure Galley' in 1698, it was near the spot where it had been careened. As it was sinking it was thoroughly looted and stripped of everything, including cannon.

Clifford had begun dives and excavations in the bay at Isle Saint Marie in 2000, but the wreck they worked on turned out to be Condent's "Fiery Dragon" as confirmed by materials such as Chinese pottery fragments etc.
He apparently found and excavated from 13 wrecks. The one he located the ingot from he believes to be the 'Adventure Galley'.

In the wreck which turned out to be the 'Fiery Dragon', there were piles of ballast STONE ("X Marks the Spot: The Archaeology of Piracy" , Skowronek& Ewen, 2006, p.112).

Since these new discoveries were in May this year, it is unclear what sort of context was found regarding ballast in this location, but the claims that what was found was port construction rubble rather than ship structural elements sounds very suspect. Clearly Mr. Clifford would know the difference.
It indeed appears that ballast 'stones' were in use rather than any lead 'pigs' although Condent' ship was burned and sank in 1721. Regardless, in the case of the 'Adventure Galley', why would a single 'pig of ballast be the only one found. Ballast mounds, regardless of material, typically remain as a single mass. A lead weight of this unusually large and heavy size, suggesting others with it if indeed ballast, would certainly not be swept away by currents.

The 'lore' of Captain Kidd's treasure has fueled the search for lost pirate treasure for centuries, and writers such as Edgar Allen Poe and Robert Louis Stevenson based much of their famed stories on it. There have been countless schemes and innovative syndications etc aligned with romantic optimisms of this 'treasure', which in reality is probably just lore. However, it does not seem infeasible, that a single silver ingot, may just have been overlooked from perhaps deep in the hold of Kidd's hopelessly worn out ship as it sunk.

25th July 2015, 04:45 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Wow! I wasn't aware of that. Yes, controversial, but still a fascinating fellow. Kind of like a pirate, eh?

25th July 2015, 06:24 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	What can I say, but aarrr .

25th July 2015, 08:11 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158

27th July 2015, 06:24 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Gav, Thank you for reviving this thread, it doesn't seem that long ago! It's always great to see these topics brought current when new material comes up.......in this case in the form of an ingot! As Rick notes........this aint no ballast!!! Why would a block of ballast have assayers stamps, and all the other pertinent markings and devices placed on precious metal ingots?? I think the only issue is how to prove that this ingot belonged to Kidd's Adventure Galley, when there were a good number of other pirate vessels frequenting Isle Sainte Marie. The kinds of marks in groupings correspond to many of those found on the Atocha (1622) ingots by Mel Fisher's group. It sure sounds like the UNESCO folks have problems with Mr. Clifford, but who knows what the circumstances are, and it seems more than unlikely that he would contrive these findings given his reputation. It would appear that most of these finds and maritime discoveries end up with far more political strife than anything comparable on terra firma. Congratulations to our own resident 'Brother of the Sea' on the recent publication of his long awaited novel!!! Bravo Cap'n Mark!!!

27th July 2015, 01:51 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Ships of that era were ballasted with stone for the most part . The marks could possibly have been added later and I suppose forensic archaeology might be able to reveal such . I would not like to cast aspersions on those involved in its recovery . Maybe it could be a pig of lead which would be melted and used for small arms shot ?

28th July 2015, 05:22 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	My curiosity as always compelled me to keep looking into this, as I wondered more on why this 'ingot' would be taken for lead ballast. As Rick has noted, it seems more common that indeed stone or gravel was used, but as I found more: In 17th century England lead ingots for ships hold ballast were indeed made; those called 'big pigs' were of 63 bs. weight....there were smaller ones of 32 lbs, accordingly called 'small pigs'. Apparently the shapes of these ballast ingots could identify nationality of ship in some degree, English: had a boat like structure, flat front, convex sides Spanish: rectangular French: salmon (?) shape (from: "Underwater and Maritime Archaeology in Latin America" M. Leshikar-Denton and Erraguerena, 2008) This bar presented by Clifford is 50 kg. (110 lbs) far larger and heavier than ballast 'pigs', also, again, why would there be the tax, assay markings as seen on ingots of precious metal? It seems that eyewitness accounts of the sinking of the 'Adventure Galley' in 1698, it was near the spot where it had been careened. As it was sinking it was thoroughly looted and stripped of everything, including cannon. Clifford had begun dives and excavations in the bay at Isle Saint Marie in 2000, but the wreck they worked on turned out to be Condent's "Fiery Dragon" as confirmed by materials such as Chinese pottery fragments etc. He apparently found and excavated from 13 wrecks. The one he located the ingot from he believes to be the 'Adventure Galley'. In the wreck which turned out to be the 'Fiery Dragon', there were piles of ballast STONE ("X Marks the Spot: The Archaeology of Piracy" , Skowronek& Ewen, 2006, p.112). Since these new discoveries were in May this year, it is unclear what sort of context was found regarding ballast in this location, but the claims that what was found was port construction rubble rather than ship structural elements sounds very suspect. Clearly Mr. Clifford would know the difference. It indeed appears that ballast 'stones' were in use rather than any lead 'pigs' although Condent' ship was burned and sank in 1721. Regardless, in the case of the 'Adventure Galley', why would a single 'pig of ballast be the only one found. Ballast mounds, regardless of material, typically remain as a single mass. A lead weight of this unusually large and heavy size, suggesting others with it if indeed ballast, would certainly not be swept away by currents. The 'lore' of Captain Kidd's treasure has fueled the search for lost pirate treasure for centuries, and writers such as Edgar Allen Poe and Robert Louis Stevenson based much of their famed stories on it. There have been countless schemes and innovative syndications etc aligned with romantic optimisms of this 'treasure', which in reality is probably just lore. However, it does not seem infeasible, that a single silver ingot, may just have been overlooked from perhaps deep in the hold of Kidd's hopelessly worn out ship as it sunk.