Features of this keris.

nechesh · 21st December 2005, 07:40 PM

No need to worry about angering me at least, opinions are just that.
Perfection is a) Like beauty in the eyes of the beholder b) Perhaps best reserved for the likes of God. I think it might also be a bit difficult to really judge the garap of this blade given the limited area of the blade that is shown. I still think this is an exellent example of modern keris making. Let us keep in mind that most older blades fall even further from the tree of perfection than this one. Critique is all well and good and in fact necessary, but i would still be pleased to own such a blade.

You might also keep in mind that your ideal of the perfect blade is based on an older set of standards which may infact being changing in mode with fashion. Nothing stays the same, not even man's ideal of perfection. Just take a look at older art works to see how the ideal female form has changed over the years and through different cultures.
I think it might also be a mistake to place all these modern keris under the title of "mass produced" Madurese. Firstly mass produced gives me the idea of something machine made, where one product is identical to the next. While certain modern methods are no doubt employed this is hardly the case in the making of this keris. Also, keris of many different levels are being produce today, just as in the past. This is an example of the higher end of that spectrum. I also hope not to anger you when i say that i could really care less how the "real high culture" of keris view these modern works. That hardly invalidates their existence for me. I obviously don't collect keris for the same reasons they do, perhaps not for the same reasons ANYONE else does. All this being said, i must admit that the large part of my collection is older keris, 19thC and older, but i do own a couple of very nice 20thC pieces. To paraphrase an old saying, I may not know keris, but i know what i like.

Mans · 21st December 2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

........
I think it might also be a mistake to place all these modern keris under the title of "mass produced" Madurese. Firstly mass produced gives me the idea of something machine made, where one product is identical to the next. While certain modern methods are no doubt employed this is hardly the case in the making of this keris. Also, keris of many different levels are being produce today, just as in the past. This is an example of the higher end of that spectrum.

Right, Nechesh.
Here I posted the example of each levels are being produced today

All of these keris are NEW MADE.

Emanuel · 22nd December 2005, 01:11 AM

Hello to all,

I have just started collecting and learning about keris, and one thing that is fascinating about them as objects is the level of craftsmanship that can go into their making. When I look at the examples above, I can really believe the old stories of famous empu shaping the hot metal with their bare hands...or other body parts in some case

...they really are organic. Ask a modern machine shop to make something of such complex shape, and with all modern CAM software and automated carving machinery few if any would be up to the challenge. New keris may -for the most part- not serve their original purpose, but as a craft, they do seem to undergo a renaissance. Look how far from their home they've gone, I'm in Canada!!
Hopefully with this rebirth, real empu might once again play big parts in keris culture.

Manolo

nechesh · 22nd December 2005, 02:44 AM

Sorry Martin, i didn't see your post til just now. Yes, your keris is of a similar dapor, but just as we were saying about different quality levels of modern blades i think you can probably see that yours is somewhat inferior to Alam's example. While Ki might find the form of Alam's keris stiff i think you will agree that yours is much less flowing. The garap just isn't right. But then, this is just one man's opinion.

BluErf · 23rd December 2005, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Sorry Martin, i didn't see your post til just now. Yes, your keris is of a similar dapor, but just as we were saying about different quality levels of modern blades i think you can probably see that yours is somewhat inferior to Alam's example.

Mans' kerises have less fancy dapur, but I don't think all of them can be said to be inferior.

The 2nd picture from the top -- that is a very graceful and balanced keris that does not lose out to the karna tinanding, which I think is a nice one too.

Look at the way the kembang kacang progresses from thick to thin before curling in -- its just 'manis' (ok, the final curled tip is a bit disappointing, but still the overal kembang kacang is very well-executed). Notice that both sides of the kembang kacang are not 'flat' at the top; there is a slight concave contour to it. This feature is much better than the karna tinanding's

The jalen and the lambei gajah, and the gandik under the jalen curls very nicely, and are not too long, not too stubby. I feel that this set of features are thus nicer than the karna tinanding's rather exaggerated ones.

The sogokan depan and belakang, in my opinion, are about as nice as the karna tinanding's, though still a bit stiff. Nice fat bungkul too.

The ganja is better though, especially in terms of the definition of the greneng, the length in proportion to the base, and the curve at the end.

Luk-wise, the keris looks proportionate and sweet.

And hey, pamor is condense and very well executed too.

Personally, I'd prefer this keris to the karna tinanding, although if presented with the chance to acquire the karna tinanding, I would grab it too!

nechesh · 23rd December 2005, 09:16 PM

Kai Wee, i wasn't talking about Mans display of newly made keris, i was referring to Martin's (simatua) karno tinanding example which is, at least to my eye, inferior in both overall form and craftsmanship. I agree with you about Mans' examples and have never been one to be swayed by a fancy dapor.

BluErf · 24th December 2005, 12:44 AM

Ops... must be because I'm half asleep when I posted the reply at 1:40am local time...

Isreena · 9th February 2006, 06:54 PM

Hello Alam Shah,

I really like the keris you just had

Hmmm... Does it come in Luk 9? I'm looking for one just like that

Cool... As long as the piece you like could qualify as what a keris should be? Well be pround of it

I have to agree with you, I too believe that as a so called "new generation keris collectors" we should maintain an open mind. Its Unique and its You

Alam Shah · 22nd December 2005, 03:57 AM

Hello, Ki Jayamalelo. I thank you for your observation and frank opinion.
I'm not angry, should I?
I had seen the entries in the "Buku Dhuwung", the one you're referring to. I know it does not conform exactly in the book, but as I mentioned earlier, I'll collect as long as it appeals to me whether it's perfect or not.

I agree with Nechesh, on his opinion of perfection and mass-production.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ki Jayamalelo

The mass production of Madura might have followers but most of them are not the real high keris culture.

You may be right but frankly, I do not care about the real high keris culture. I collect what I like, as long as it makes me happy.

Your opinions are noted. Thanks again. Salam and a Happy New Year.

Alam Shah · 22nd December 2005, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

I have just started collecting and learning about keris, and one thing that is fascinating about them as objects is the level of craftsmanship that can go into their making. Ask a modern machine shop to make something of such complex shape, and with all modern CAM software and automated carving machinery few if any would be up to the challenge. New keris may -for the most part- not serve their original purpose, but as a craft, they do seem to undergo a renaissance. Look how far from their home they've gone, I'm in Canada!!
Manolo

My other modern piece, not a keris but using modern CAM equipment with precision and manual finishes.

Emanuel · 22nd December 2005, 04:22 AM

Well that shut me up Alam Shah, I'll have to watch my exhuberance and admiration for the manual craft.

Alam Shah · 22nd December 2005, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Well that shut me up Alam Shah, I'll have to watch my exhuberance and admiration for the manual craft.

It's OK, we are all here to learn.

Battara · 22nd December 2005, 08:02 PM

I must say I like those new keris that are posted here. Nice work. The art is still alive and well to some degree.

9th February 2006, 06:54 PM	#8
Isreena Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 9	Keris Pendawa Karna Tinanding Hello Alam Shah, I really like the keris you just had Hmmm... Does it come in Luk 9? I'm looking for one just like that Cool... As long as the piece you like could qualify as what a keris should be? Well be pround of it I have to agree with you, I too believe that as a so called "new generation keris collectors" we should maintain an open mind. Its Unique and its You

22nd December 2005, 04:22 AM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I stand corrected Well that shut me up Alam Shah, I'll have to watch my exhuberance and admiration for the manual craft.

21st December 2005, 07:40 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	No need to worry about angering me at least, opinions are just that. Perfection is a) Like beauty in the eyes of the beholder b) Perhaps best reserved for the likes of God. I think it might also be a bit difficult to really judge the garap of this blade given the limited area of the blade that is shown. I still think this is an exellent example of modern keris making. Let us keep in mind that most older blades fall even further from the tree of perfection than this one. Critique is all well and good and in fact necessary, but i would still be pleased to own such a blade. You might also keep in mind that your ideal of the perfect blade is based on an older set of standards which may infact being changing in mode with fashion. Nothing stays the same, not even man's ideal of perfection. Just take a look at older art works to see how the ideal female form has changed over the years and through different cultures. I think it might also be a mistake to place all these modern keris under the title of "mass produced" Madurese. Firstly mass produced gives me the idea of something machine made, where one product is identical to the next. While certain modern methods are no doubt employed this is hardly the case in the making of this keris. Also, keris of many different levels are being produce today, just as in the past. This is an example of the higher end of that spectrum. I also hope not to anger you when i say that i could really care less how the "real high culture" of keris view these modern works. That hardly invalidates their existence for me. I obviously don't collect keris for the same reasons they do, perhaps not for the same reasons ANYONE else does. All this being said, i must admit that the large part of my collection is older keris, 19thC and older, but i do own a couple of very nice 20thC pieces. To paraphrase an old saying, I may not know keris, but i know what i like.

22nd December 2005, 01:11 AM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello to all, I have just started collecting and learning about keris, and one thing that is fascinating about them as objects is the level of craftsmanship that can go into their making. When I look at the examples above, I can really believe the old stories of famous empu shaping the hot metal with their bare hands...or other body parts in some case ...they really are organic. Ask a modern machine shop to make something of such complex shape, and with all modern CAM software and automated carving machinery few if any would be up to the challenge. New keris may -for the most part- not serve their original purpose, but as a craft, they do seem to undergo a renaissance. Look how far from their home they've gone, I'm in Canada!! Hopefully with this rebirth, real empu might once again play big parts in keris culture. Manolo

22nd December 2005, 02:44 AM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Martin, i didn't see your post til just now. Yes, your keris is of a similar dapor, but just as we were saying about different quality levels of modern blades i think you can probably see that yours is somewhat inferior to Alam's example. While Ki might find the form of Alam's keris stiff i think you will agree that yours is much less flowing. The garap just isn't right. But then, this is just one man's opinion.

23rd December 2005, 09:16 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Kai Wee, i wasn't talking about Mans display of newly made keris, i was referring to Martin's (simatua) karno tinanding example which is, at least to my eye, inferior in both overall form and craftsmanship. I agree with you about Mans' examples and have never been one to be swayed by a fancy dapor.

24th December 2005, 12:44 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ops... must be because I'm half asleep when I posted the reply at 1:40am local time...

22nd December 2005, 08:02 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	I must say I like those new keris that are posted here. Nice work. The art is still alive and well to some degree.