Features of this keris.

Battara · 21st December 2005, 05:40 AM

A fascinating modern keris version. I am attracted by it and yet confused by it.

IN the same vein as Manolo, it's like sculpture. Could this be a new evolution of the keris? Could this be the start of a new keris tradition?

Alam Shah · 21st December 2005, 08:14 AM

Manolo, good observation. It's like a 'champion' model of the swiss army knife, where there are many features...on this one.

Quote:

Battara: Could this be a new evolution of the keris

Battara, possibly it may. I'm not surprised if in the future, perhaps you can order a piece with features that you like, a custom-made piece.

Nechesh, modern it is. But 'internally' does not necessarily be 'empty'.

What I'm wondering is, with Pudak Setegal, can this keris dapur still be called
Dapur Pandawa Karno Tinanding or instead
Dapur Pandawa Karno Tinanding Pudak Sategal or
something else altogether?

Battara · 21st December 2005, 09:21 AM

I guess this is how new catagories of things (keris) start.

nechesh · 21st December 2005, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Nechesh, modern it is. But 'internally' does not necessarily be 'empty'.

What I'm wondering is, with Pudak Setegal, can this keris dapur still be called
Dapur Pandawa Karno Tinanding or instead
Dapur Pandawa Karno Tinanding Pudak Sategal or
something else altogether?

Sorry Alam Shah, i am not quite sure what you mean by this first statement. Did i somehow imply i thought this keris to be "empty". Personally, i quite like the blade.

As to what to call it, i new name might be in order. Certainly to tack Pudak Sategal on the end does tell the story.
As to whether in the future one could order a keris with custom made features, wasn't this, to some extent, always the case in the past. There were, of course, restrictions on class and hierarchy, but wouldn't a client tell the empu or pande what he wanted in his keris, what he needed in his life and wouldn't that dictate the dapor and pamor he would receive. These days we are not held to the same cultural constricts of the past so i think keris design may continue to get a bit more "experimental". It could indeed prove to be a rennisance (spl?) of the art if collectors become more open to adding modern keris to their collections.

Alam Shah · 21st December 2005, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

As to whether in the future one could order a keris with custom made features, wasn't this, to some extent, always the case in the past. There were, of course, restrictions on class and hierarchy, but wouldn't a client tell the empu or pande what he wanted in his keris, what he needed in his life and wouldn't that dictate the dapor and pamor he would receive.

In the past, the maker decides the features, not the client (in most cases, i think).

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

These days we are not held to the same cultural constricts of the past so i think keris design may continue to get a bit more "experimental". It could indeed prove to be a renaissance (spl=ok) of the art if collectors become more open to adding modern keris to their collections.

This question would pop-up. What is the purpose of collecting keris?

For art, culture, heritage, spiritual elements, antique, investment, fun(?)...etc?

It's fine with me, I'll collect as long as it appeals to me.

Ki Jayamalelo · 21st December 2005, 06:28 PM

Hello Alam Shah and all Kerislovers,

i don`t want to make you angry but there must be some critics! But first of all i want to say according to my textbook with drawings of 1920 of the Keraton Solo this keris is:

dhapur Pandhawa Karna Tinandhing but because of the ganja kelap lintah we could add Pandhawa Karna Tinandhing kelap lintah ?.

The description of the ricikan are:

luk 5, blades with 5 luk has in general the name pandhawa

pejetan ngajeng-wingking,
sogokan ngajeng-wingking,
tikel alis ngajeng-wingking,
sekar kacang ngajeng-wingking,
lambe gajah kalih ngajeng-wingking,
jalen ngajeng-wingking,
pudhak sategal bungkem,
ron dha kalih.

The design of this dhapur is probably not so old (late 19th-early 20th cent ?)

The execution and garapan of this blade ist still far from perfect because of the base line of the ganja and blade. Should be a small angle between the centerline of the blade and the base line therefor the blade is showing stiffness. Also the buntut of the ganja (to long) and also the flow of the wuwung ganja especialy the luk of the buntut-side is to slow.The lower ron dha is more closed then the upper one. The tampingan pejetan are almost parallel to the ada-ada, should be more narrow in the upper part and the tampingan should be straight. The lambe gajah goes to far out of the blade.

But anyway its a beginning and i have the feeling or better my observation are: the quality of of modern keris is improving and this makes me quite happy especially the keris becomes a world treasure of mankind.

The mass production of Madura might have followers but most of them are not the real high keris culture.

Salam to all of you and Happy New Year

Ki Jayamalelo

simatua · 21st December 2005, 07:19 PM

Hello Ki Jayamalelo,

I placed this keris before on the forum. I got just a little response.
Your Critism is a eye opener ( although to me )
Is it possible to give a comment on this one?
Of course everybody is invited too, dont hold back
thanks in advance

greetings

nechesh · 21st December 2005, 07:40 PM

No need to worry about angering me at least, opinions are just that.
Perfection is a) Like beauty in the eyes of the beholder b) Perhaps best reserved for the likes of God. I think it might also be a bit difficult to really judge the garap of this blade given the limited area of the blade that is shown. I still think this is an exellent example of modern keris making. Let us keep in mind that most older blades fall even further from the tree of perfection than this one. Critique is all well and good and in fact necessary, but i would still be pleased to own such a blade.

You might also keep in mind that your ideal of the perfect blade is based on an older set of standards which may infact being changing in mode with fashion. Nothing stays the same, not even man's ideal of perfection. Just take a look at older art works to see how the ideal female form has changed over the years and through different cultures.
I think it might also be a mistake to place all these modern keris under the title of "mass produced" Madurese. Firstly mass produced gives me the idea of something machine made, where one product is identical to the next. While certain modern methods are no doubt employed this is hardly the case in the making of this keris. Also, keris of many different levels are being produce today, just as in the past. This is an example of the higher end of that spectrum. I also hope not to anger you when i say that i could really care less how the "real high culture" of keris view these modern works. That hardly invalidates their existence for me. I obviously don't collect keris for the same reasons they do, perhaps not for the same reasons ANYONE else does. All this being said, i must admit that the large part of my collection is older keris, 19thC and older, but i do own a couple of very nice 20thC pieces. To paraphrase an old saying, I may not know keris, but i know what i like.

Mans · 21st December 2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

........
I think it might also be a mistake to place all these modern keris under the title of "mass produced" Madurese. Firstly mass produced gives me the idea of something machine made, where one product is identical to the next. While certain modern methods are no doubt employed this is hardly the case in the making of this keris. Also, keris of many different levels are being produce today, just as in the past. This is an example of the higher end of that spectrum.

Right, Nechesh.
Here I posted the example of each levels are being produced today

All of these keris are NEW MADE.

Emanuel · 22nd December 2005, 01:11 AM

Hello to all,

I have just started collecting and learning about keris, and one thing that is fascinating about them as objects is the level of craftsmanship that can go into their making. When I look at the examples above, I can really believe the old stories of famous empu shaping the hot metal with their bare hands...or other body parts in some case

...they really are organic. Ask a modern machine shop to make something of such complex shape, and with all modern CAM software and automated carving machinery few if any would be up to the challenge. New keris may -for the most part- not serve their original purpose, but as a craft, they do seem to undergo a renaissance. Look how far from their home they've gone, I'm in Canada!!
Hopefully with this rebirth, real empu might once again play big parts in keris culture.

Manolo

BluErf · 23rd December 2005, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ki Jayamalelo

The mass production of Madura might have followers but most of them are not the real high keris culture.

Hi Ki Jayamalelo,

Alas... 99.9999% of us keris collectors can never hope to own, touch, or even see a high-culture keris...

But your comments are certainly necessary to see where the high end of the bar is. Empu Kumis used to share with us the features of a good keris, in accordance to his very strict standards.

Unfortunately, pictures of good high-culture kerises are far and few in between, so it is difficult to appreciate the aesthetic nuances that the words are trying to describe.

Battara · 24th December 2005, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Ki Jayamalelo,

Alas... 99.9999% of us keris collectors can never hope to own, touch, or even see a high-culture keris...

.

You're not kidding. I have a better end Bali keris that I am 10 years now in restoring. The only true high-culture keris I have ever seen up close and touched (

) was one that Rsword brought to Timonium last year - a Bugis keris with great pamor and covered in 22k gold (but missing a bottom part

). It was beautiful, but I could not come near affording it (though I wanted to very much

).

nechesh · 24th December 2005, 09:40 PM

I'm afraid it's even worse than you think Jose. I didn't see the keris Rick brought to the last seminar, so i could be wrong, but if he was asking less than $50,000.00 it probably didn't qualify or he didn't truly know what he had and was asking too little. This don't mean that it wasn't a very nice keris. Don't let the gold fool you, anyone can add that on to a well made blade and make it look like something even more than it is.

We tend to see a lot more dress that could clothe a high end keris than the keris themselves, probably because high end dress is still being made. Most often the keris we see in such fancy dress are decent to poor, with the dress meant to sell the package. As has been implied, these "high culture" keris are raely, if ever, seen by mere mortal eyes.

21st December 2005, 07:19 PM	#7
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	Hello Ki Jayamalelo, I placed this keris before on the forum. I got just a little response. Your Critism is a eye opener ( although to me ) Is it possible to give a comment on this one? Of course everybody is invited too, dont hold back thanks in advance greetings Attached Images

21st December 2005, 05:40 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	A fascinating modern keris version. I am attracted by it and yet confused by it. IN the same vein as Manolo, it's like sculpture. Could this be a new evolution of the keris? Could this be the start of a new keris tradition?

21st December 2005, 09:21 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	I guess this is how new catagories of things (keris) start.

21st December 2005, 06:28 PM	#6
Ki Jayamalelo Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 18	Hello Alam Shah and all Kerislovers, i don`t want to make you angry but there must be some critics! But first of all i want to say according to my textbook with drawings of 1920 of the Keraton Solo this keris is: dhapur Pandhawa Karna Tinandhing but because of the ganja kelap lintah we could add Pandhawa Karna Tinandhing kelap lintah ?. The description of the ricikan are: luk 5, blades with 5 luk has in general the name pandhawa pejetan ngajeng-wingking, sogokan ngajeng-wingking, tikel alis ngajeng-wingking, sekar kacang ngajeng-wingking, lambe gajah kalih ngajeng-wingking, jalen ngajeng-wingking, pudhak sategal bungkem, ron dha kalih. The design of this dhapur is probably not so old (late 19th-early 20th cent ?) The execution and garapan of this blade ist still far from perfect because of the base line of the ganja and blade. Should be a small angle between the centerline of the blade and the base line therefor the blade is showing stiffness. Also the buntut of the ganja (to long) and also the flow of the wuwung ganja especialy the luk of the buntut-side is to slow.The lower ron dha is more closed then the upper one. The tampingan pejetan are almost parallel to the ada-ada, should be more narrow in the upper part and the tampingan should be straight. The lambe gajah goes to far out of the blade. But anyway its a beginning and i have the feeling or better my observation are: the quality of of modern keris is improving and this makes me quite happy especially the keris becomes a world treasure of mankind. The mass production of Madura might have followers but most of them are not the real high keris culture. Salam to all of you and Happy New Year Ki Jayamalelo

21st December 2005, 07:40 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	No need to worry about angering me at least, opinions are just that. Perfection is a) Like beauty in the eyes of the beholder b) Perhaps best reserved for the likes of God. I think it might also be a bit difficult to really judge the garap of this blade given the limited area of the blade that is shown. I still think this is an exellent example of modern keris making. Let us keep in mind that most older blades fall even further from the tree of perfection than this one. Critique is all well and good and in fact necessary, but i would still be pleased to own such a blade. You might also keep in mind that your ideal of the perfect blade is based on an older set of standards which may infact being changing in mode with fashion. Nothing stays the same, not even man's ideal of perfection. Just take a look at older art works to see how the ideal female form has changed over the years and through different cultures. I think it might also be a mistake to place all these modern keris under the title of "mass produced" Madurese. Firstly mass produced gives me the idea of something machine made, where one product is identical to the next. While certain modern methods are no doubt employed this is hardly the case in the making of this keris. Also, keris of many different levels are being produce today, just as in the past. This is an example of the higher end of that spectrum. I also hope not to anger you when i say that i could really care less how the "real high culture" of keris view these modern works. That hardly invalidates their existence for me. I obviously don't collect keris for the same reasons they do, perhaps not for the same reasons ANYONE else does. All this being said, i must admit that the large part of my collection is older keris, 19thC and older, but i do own a couple of very nice 20thC pieces. To paraphrase an old saying, I may not know keris, but i know what i like.

22nd December 2005, 01:11 AM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello to all, I have just started collecting and learning about keris, and one thing that is fascinating about them as objects is the level of craftsmanship that can go into their making. When I look at the examples above, I can really believe the old stories of famous empu shaping the hot metal with their bare hands...or other body parts in some case ...they really are organic. Ask a modern machine shop to make something of such complex shape, and with all modern CAM software and automated carving machinery few if any would be up to the challenge. New keris may -for the most part- not serve their original purpose, but as a craft, they do seem to undergo a renaissance. Look how far from their home they've gone, I'm in Canada!! Hopefully with this rebirth, real empu might once again play big parts in keris culture. Manolo

24th December 2005, 09:40 PM	#13
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I'm afraid it's even worse than you think Jose. I didn't see the keris Rick brought to the last seminar, so i could be wrong, but if he was asking less than $50,000.00 it probably didn't qualify or he didn't truly know what he had and was asking too little. This don't mean that it wasn't a very nice keris. Don't let the gold fool you, anyone can add that on to a well made blade and make it look like something even more than it is. We tend to see a lot more dress that could clothe a high end keris than the keris themselves, probably because high end dress is still being made. Most often the keris we see in such fancy dress are decent to poor, with the dress meant to sell the package. As has been implied, these "high culture" keris are raely, if ever, seen by mere mortal eyes.