Over cleaning the keris blade?

A. G. Maisey · 2nd July 2015, 03:35 AM

Two keris of very different age and very different material:- we cannot compare apples to rambutan.

Green · 2nd July 2015, 05:58 AM

interesting comment that Mr A G Maisey. The over cleaned keris is mine and supposed to be quite old possibly late 19th century/early 20th?. Do you think this is so ?

The latter I don't know as i just pluck out the pic from the net. But be that as it may , irrespective of old or new keris, one would expect the surface look would be the same ?

A. G. Maisey · 2nd July 2015, 07:39 AM

Green:-

When we start to talk about the age of a keris blade, or any other tosan aji for that matter, we are moving into the area of blade classification, ie, "tangguh", and this is a field that is full of misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and extreme difficulty. It is not an area that anybody with any degree of knowledge likes to get involved in when all they have to form an opinion are incomplete photographic representations of a blade.

That said, I am still prepared to make a couple of comments.

The blade you consider to be over cleaned is a relatively young blade, I'm not prepared to classify it, but it probably does come from the era you have nominated, say, later than 1850.

The other blade comes from a much older period of time.

The materials used in a blade are a major indicator in classification of a blade, and they vary from era to era. We do not expect a 17th century blade to use similar material to that which is used in a 19th century blade.

Some Javanese blades from the period after 1850 used some rather odd materials for pamor material. One such material was Dutch coinage, and blades containing this material have a smooth, greasy feel.

To understand how a keris should look takes a great many years of dedicated study, combined with the opportunity to handle literally thousands of blades. In short, a 19th century Surakarta blade will not have material that looks even remotely like a Pajajaran blade that comes from a much earlier time.

Before we can form an opinion as to whether or not a blade has been correctly cleaned, we need to know what it should look like when it has been correctly cleaned. Before we can form this opinion we need to be able to classify the blade, that is, give it a tangguh. Before we can give it a tangguh, we need to handle it.

Photos are not adequate in this instance.

David · 2nd July 2015, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

....irrespective of old or new keris, one would expect the surface look would be the same ?

Green, it's not even just a matter of old or new, though that is obviously a factor. Since you live in Malaysia you must know that the country that is Indonesia is made up of numerous cultures with varying customs. So how the surface of a keris looks depends not only upon the exact materials used, how old it is and how many times it has been acid washed, but also the tradition of treatment for that particular area and local culture. Though the keris as we know it began it's life in Jawa, as it spread throughout the archipelago differing local customs were applied to it's treatment and care. Some areas are more aggressive with the acid washing of blades than others. Some areas like Bali polish blades to a smooth surface after washing and staining. Some areas do not stain their blades. It all depends on the area and time period that the keris is from.
Here is an example of a Balinese keris (late 19th to early 20th Century) with a traditional smooth surface and stain as well as a keris from the Malay Peninsula with a smooth surface. Both these smooth surfaces are correct surfaces for these types of keris IMO.

GIO · 2nd July 2015, 06:33 PM

I would like to express my personal opinion.
I think that, when finished by the empu, the blade is smooth. In fact, when making the chiselling (prabot), one has to employ files, sand or sanding paper, which tend to smooth the iron. The subsequent treatment with warangan has the effect of altering somewhat the surface of the blade, but not necessarily to make it rough. (see Balinese blades).
I think that Green intends another characteristic, which is not obtained during the forging or the etching of the blade. I was once shown an old Javanese keris with the full surface of the blade evenly showing an aspect of very fine sandpaper. The blade was absolutely black.
My personal opinion is that the blade, after being finished smooth and shiny, was dipped into some kind of chemical agent with the result of transforming the smooth surface in a sandpaper-like one. This kind of surface could also explain the very dark colour of the blade, since the warangan would more easily grip on the surface.
I can only express an opinion since nobody explained me the process.
I shall contact the owner and see if I can obtain a picture to show in this thread, meanwhile any comment would be welcome.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd July 2015, 08:50 PM

I have handled a number of blades that were made by Surakarta Keraton pandai keris & empus during the late 19th century and early 20th century. These blades were held in a Keraton store-room and had never been used.

All were polished smooth.

In the museum attached to the Keraton Surakarta there are a few old keris on display. Some have polished blades.

I have also handled a number of keris which entered Europe pre-1700. All were polished smooth.

When I was taught how to make keris by Empu Suparman I was instructed to do the final polish with a paste made from dust of ground terra-cotta and water, using a piece of coconut husk as a rubber. Once the final polish had been completed I had the option of treating with a compound to produce an aged finish, or leaving as it was in a polished state.

Today, most Javanese people prefer a slightly aged finish on even a brand new keris.

My feeling is that this practice of producing an aged, slightly roughened finish is a comparatively recent tendency, possibly not more than a couple of hundred years old at most. I feel that in the distant past, blades would have been polished clean and then re-stained, rather than being acid cleaned before re-staining.

Green · 3rd July 2015, 07:54 AM

I agree with Maisey that these days empus/pandai besi tend to make keris with 'aged' look. I just came back from visiting a pandai besi in Kelantan (North east of Peninsula Malaysia about 20 km from Southern Thailand border/Patani) and the new kerises that he make look like antique ones to my untrained eyes.

He even claimed that even keris experts can not distinguish between old and new kerises that he made. When I inform him about mine which I feel overcleaned he mentioned that he could easily turn that into 'aged' look by a process of immersing into some kind of acid(?) solution. FYI , I did not take his offer.

2nd July 2015, 03:35 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Two keris of very different age and very different material:- we cannot compare apples to rambutan.

2nd July 2015, 05:58 AM	#2
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	interesting comment that Mr A G Maisey. The over cleaned keris is mine and supposed to be quite old possibly late 19th century/early 20th?. Do you think this is so ? The latter I don't know as i just pluck out the pic from the net. But be that as it may , irrespective of old or new keris, one would expect the surface look would be the same ?

2nd July 2015, 07:39 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Green:- When we start to talk about the age of a keris blade, or any other tosan aji for that matter, we are moving into the area of blade classification, ie, "tangguh", and this is a field that is full of misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and extreme difficulty. It is not an area that anybody with any degree of knowledge likes to get involved in when all they have to form an opinion are incomplete photographic representations of a blade. That said, I am still prepared to make a couple of comments. The blade you consider to be over cleaned is a relatively young blade, I'm not prepared to classify it, but it probably does come from the era you have nominated, say, later than 1850. The other blade comes from a much older period of time. The materials used in a blade are a major indicator in classification of a blade, and they vary from era to era. We do not expect a 17th century blade to use similar material to that which is used in a 19th century blade. Some Javanese blades from the period after 1850 used some rather odd materials for pamor material. One such material was Dutch coinage, and blades containing this material have a smooth, greasy feel. To understand how a keris should look takes a great many years of dedicated study, combined with the opportunity to handle literally thousands of blades. In short, a 19th century Surakarta blade will not have material that looks even remotely like a Pajajaran blade that comes from a much earlier time. Before we can form an opinion as to whether or not a blade has been correctly cleaned, we need to know what it should look like when it has been correctly cleaned. Before we can form this opinion we need to be able to classify the blade, that is, give it a tangguh. Before we can give it a tangguh, we need to handle it. Photos are not adequate in this instance.

2nd July 2015, 06:33 PM	#5
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	I would like to express my personal opinion. I think that, when finished by the empu, the blade is smooth. In fact, when making the chiselling (prabot), one has to employ files, sand or sanding paper, which tend to smooth the iron. The subsequent treatment with warangan has the effect of altering somewhat the surface of the blade, but not necessarily to make it rough. (see Balinese blades). I think that Green intends another characteristic, which is not obtained during the forging or the etching of the blade. I was once shown an old Javanese keris with the full surface of the blade evenly showing an aspect of very fine sandpaper. The blade was absolutely black. My personal opinion is that the blade, after being finished smooth and shiny, was dipped into some kind of chemical agent with the result of transforming the smooth surface in a sandpaper-like one. This kind of surface could also explain the very dark colour of the blade, since the warangan would more easily grip on the surface. I can only express an opinion since nobody explained me the process. I shall contact the owner and see if I can obtain a picture to show in this thread, meanwhile any comment would be welcome.

2nd July 2015, 08:50 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I have handled a number of blades that were made by Surakarta Keraton pandai keris & empus during the late 19th century and early 20th century. These blades were held in a Keraton store-room and had never been used. All were polished smooth. In the museum attached to the Keraton Surakarta there are a few old keris on display. Some have polished blades. I have also handled a number of keris which entered Europe pre-1700. All were polished smooth. When I was taught how to make keris by Empu Suparman I was instructed to do the final polish with a paste made from dust of ground terra-cotta and water, using a piece of coconut husk as a rubber. Once the final polish had been completed I had the option of treating with a compound to produce an aged finish, or leaving as it was in a polished state. Today, most Javanese people prefer a slightly aged finish on even a brand new keris. My feeling is that this practice of producing an aged, slightly roughened finish is a comparatively recent tendency, possibly not more than a couple of hundred years old at most. I feel that in the distant past, blades would have been polished clean and then re-stained, rather than being acid cleaned before re-staining.

3rd July 2015, 07:54 AM	#7
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	I agree with Maisey that these days empus/pandai besi tend to make keris with 'aged' look. I just came back from visiting a pandai besi in Kelantan (North east of Peninsula Malaysia about 20 km from Southern Thailand border/Patani) and the new kerises that he make look like antique ones to my untrained eyes. He even claimed that even keris experts can not distinguish between old and new kerises that he made. When I inform him about mine which I feel overcleaned he mentioned that he could easily turn that into 'aged' look by a process of immersing into some kind of acid(?) solution. FYI , I did not take his offer.