Basket hilted swords

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Just looking back at what I have and haven’t posted on this thread already and realised I missed the third of my Spiracle Pommel Swords, so here it is.

Basket Hilted Back Sword (Irish Hilt)
Date: Circa 1615-40
Nationality: British
Overall Length: 108.6 cm 42 ¾”
Blade length: 95.1 cm 37 5/8”
Blade widest point: 2.8 cm 1 1/8”
Hilt widest point: 11.3 cm 4 2/4”
Inside grip length: 8.5 cm 3 3/8”
Marks, etc.: Blade marked to both sides to a German, Solingen Swordsmith, “CLEMENS DINGER”.

With regards to marks, I flipped the picture of the two makes under the hilt upside down and what I first thought looked like some kind of snake now looks more like two swans. Sometimes I think the more you look at sword marks the more confusing they get.

Description
English Basket Hilt circa 1615-40
English basket hilt sword (Irish Hilt) of early form, approx. Staghorn grip (latter replacement), steel guard of early type with the feature of a loop in the nut that attaches the guard to the Spherical pommel. The backsword blade is attributed to Clemens Dingen (II) recorded as working 1630-1710 and marked with CLEMENS DINGER and the Orb and cross on both sides.

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp67
MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army pp122
OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution pp176-178

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Cathey

The backsword blade is attributed to Clemens Dingen (II) recorded as working 1630-1710 and marked with CLEMENS DINGER and the Orb and cross on both sides.

WOW, he worked 80 years !

there is a famous Swedish sword known which can be dated to 1627 with a similar standing swan of Clemens Dinger.
I will check it later today.

best,

[cornelistromp]

swan mark and "signature Clemens Deinger" on rapier of Gustav II. Adolf from Sweden carried at battle of Dirschau Poland in 1627.

Clemens Dinger worked for from <1627 to the 1650s, the swan mark (different) was also used by his son Heinrich and used by his grandson Wilhem in 1698 onwards.

[Jim McDougall]

Definitely a very nice blade! Apparently Clemens Dinger (the elder) worked in Solingen 1590-1620 and then listed (according to Bezdek p134) in Toledo from 1620-1677. There is another listed among the numerous members of this family as Clemens Dinger zu Wirsberg 1640-45 (not sure what the 'zu' means).
Whatever the case this blade of course probably aligns with earlier blades by the elder as the 1627 date was set as noted by the battle in Poland that year.

I am curious, in the name stamp, why are the 'N's backward (as in the Cyrillic letter 'I') ? Is this some sort of artistic license or deliberately set trademark? In many cases other letters as in Spanish names, inscriptions have uncharacteristic 'E's and other substitutions in various cases.

The swan stamp apparently survived in non 'Dinger' blades well through the 18th century as found in smallswords among other town marks and hallmarks (Dean, 1929). As always curious on other use of the swan markings.

[Cathey]

Upon cornelistromp advice I purchased copies of Solinger Schwertschmiede Des 16. Und 17. Jahrhundersts Und Ihre Erxeugenisse by ALber Weyersberg and Stephan Kinsman’s European Makers or Edges Weapons, the Marks a Handbook for Museums and Collections. These books arrived the other day and I have found both publications quite useful.

Given the earlier period dating for the sword in question I would attribute the time line to Clemens Dinger worked for from 1627 to the 1650s.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey, interesting references you note that you obtained, can you suggest (via PM) where these might be obtained?

I am inclined to think, according to the referenced data I mentioned, that this blade was probably produced pre-1620, as Clemens Dinger apparently worked 1590-1620 in Germany, then to Toledo. The 1627 date is as I understand a date of provenance with his name rather than a working date reference. The earlier date seems to fit well with what seems a very early English hilt.

Best regards,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Definitely a very nice blade! Apparently Clemens Dinger (the elder) worked in Solingen 1590-1620 and then listed (according to Bezdek p134) in Toledo from 1620-1677.

if he started working as a sword smith in Solingen at around the age of 20, then he stopped in Toledo at the age of 107! ???
This is obviously not the case.
if you could survive childhood and your teenage years you had a good chance of living to your 50s or your early 60s.

I think there are two Clemens mixed together here.

re Toldedo:
Wendelin Boeheim refers to one Spanish? dated blade of Clemente dinger,
CLEMETE DINGER ESPERADO MI SIGNAL PARAIO 1677,
but questioned whether there really has worked a Dinger in Toledo.
It was fashion to put in Solingen Spanish phrases and Toledo look a like marks in the blades.

I expect the career of clemens Dinger as suggested by Boeheim, before 1627 to mid 50s to be very likely.

best
jasper

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

if he started working as a sword smith in Solingen at around the age of 20, then he stopped in Toledo at the age of 107! ???
This is obviously not the case.
if you could survive childhood and your teenage years you had a good chance of living to your 50s or your early 60s.

I think there are two Clemens mixed together here.

re Toldedo:
Wendelin Boeheim refers to one Spanish? dated blade of Clemente dinger,
CLEMETE DINGER ESPERADO MI SIGNAL PARAIO 1677,
but questioned whether there really has worked a Dinger in Toledo.
It was fashion to put in Solingen Spanish phrases and Toledo look a like marks in the blades.

I expect the career of clemens Dinger as suggested by Boeheim, before 1627 to mid 50s to be very likely.

best
jasper

Well, Andrea Ferara produced thousands of blades over at least two centuries!!
Naturally there seems a disparity in records, and there were a number of smiths in the Dinger family over generations. Without any further thought needed toward the latter Clemens Dinger attribution nor Toledo, my point was primarily that the making of this blade seems to me likely the earlier (pre 1627) and I do agree the period suggested.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well, Andrea Ferara produced thousands of blades over at least two centuries!!
Naturally there seems a disparity in records, and there were a number of smiths in the Dinger family over generations. Without any further thought needed toward the latter Clemens Dinger attribution nor Toledo, my point was primarily that the making of this blade seems to me likely the earlier (pre 1627) and I do agree the period suggested.

Hi Jim, yes 1627 is a kind of Terminus post quem the earliest evidence of date, he must have worked.
.

very best wishes,
Jasper