Kris/Kalis with straight blade

VANDOO · 20th May 2015, 05:46 AM

A NICE SOLID LOOKING KRIS, PERHAPS TIGHT ENOUGH TO DO A LITTLE LIGHT CUTTING . HOW IS THE BALANCE AND FEEL WHEN IN HAND?

kronckew · 20th May 2015, 08:55 AM

i'll let you know when it arrives

it hasn't been teleported yet. only won it last night. (pics are from ebay)

i've seen a few kris here on the forum that have the baca-bacas over the bolster then under the wrap, sometimes exposed in bands. i gather it's not all that unusual from some other stuff i've read.

the wrap does look like square cut leather thonging, i'll check it on arrival. is it possible it could have been replaced with leather by a western owner? looks like they did a good job tho.

CharlesS · 20th May 2015, 11:51 AM

Looks like a nice blade here with an old scabbard. The scabbard mounts appear new as does the leather wrap to the hilt. The silver ring to the pommel is typical to Moro hilts from the Maguindanao, Maranao, and occasionally elsewhere. It would originally have been tied together with wire. The scabbard suggests the same origins.

The most curious thing I find here is the color of the ganja. It seems quite different in color to the blade, and I am wondering if it is a silver or alloy ganja. If so it would be quite unique!

Looking forward to finding out more.

Roland_M · 20th May 2015, 12:28 PM

"I am wondering if it is a silver or alloy ganja."

It would be a little difficult, to connect silver and steel. I know of two techniques, laser welding or hard soldering.

If someone is looking for Moro swords, here is my favorite auction site: (removed; no commercial links please)
Search for "*kris", including the After Sale, they have three Moro swords for sale.

kronckew · 20th May 2015, 03:54 PM

i thought the ganja was NOT connected & they were seperate pieces just held together in a press fit, the baca-bacas holding everything together.

from frederico's moro swords site:
=====================
Again, like their Malay cousin the antique Moro kris blade consisted of two parts, that of the blade proper and the seperate gangya (guard). On Kris made before the late 19th century this seperate gangya was evident by a straight line parallel to the guard, however at some point in the late 19th century the line went to a sharp angle when nearing the outer end of the guard. After the 1930s the seperate gangya dissappeared and the blades were made in one piece. On some modern kris there is an engraved line to symbolize the gangya but on many there is no de-marcation of any kind.
...
Now the blade was ready to be merged with the handle. Some have thought that the baca-baca (clamps) served to secure the blade to the handle. While partially true in the sense that they do give support, the primary purpose of the baca-baca was to insure the mating of the ganya and the blade. It is possible that this was important as to make sure that the Jen (spirit) that inhabited the blade and gave it its superior abilities would not escape. The primary means of securing the blade to the handle was through natural resin.
===================

...and thus the ganja could be just about any metal. as noted earlier it does match the rest of the blade and is finely fitted, the patina is quite different tho. maybe it was cleaned differently when the hilt was refitted and re-wrapped?

Rick · 20th May 2015, 04:01 PM

Yes, they are seperate pieces .

Except when they're not; sometimes it is just a scribed line of demarcation .
A really well fitted ganja may be very hard to spot .

I have a feeling the kris under discussion was refurbished outside of its native culture .
Example of the stirrup strap running under the ferrule .

kronckew · 20th May 2015, 04:15 PM

on a technical engineering note, bonding dissimilar metals is an art. many of the newer USCG cutter classes (now getting a bit long in the tooth) started off with steel decks and hulls with aluminum superstuctures to save weight & add to stability. they were joined at the main deck with a lap joint with a synthetic rubber gasket, all bolted together. this made a perfect galvanic cell & the join rotted out very quickly. they discovered a trick to join them. explosive welding. they made a joint of steel on one side, aluminum on the other by exploding them together. the sides away from the joint could then be welded with normal steel and aluminum welding techiniques. the bond was so intimate it did not set up a galvanic cell.

japanese smiths have been hammer welding dissimilar metals in layers for artistic weapons fittings for centuries. the hammering taking the place of explosives.

Roland_M · 21st May 2015, 01:29 PM

I understand, i thought, the stirrups are to weak to hold the blade and made just for decoration. Some kalis swords with separate gangya have only one stirrup and i am quite sure, this is not enough to hold the blade safely in combat.

20th May 2015, 08:55 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	i'll let you know when it arrives it hasn't been teleported yet. only won it last night. (pics are from ebay) i've seen a few kris here on the forum that have the baca-bacas over the bolster then under the wrap, sometimes exposed in bands. i gather it's not all that unusual from some other stuff i've read. the wrap does look like square cut leather thonging, i'll check it on arrival. is it possible it could have been replaced with leather by a western owner? looks like they did a good job tho. Last edited by kronckew; 20th May 2015 at 09:27 AM.

20th May 2015, 12:28 PM	#4
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	"I am wondering if it is a silver or alloy ganja." It would be a little difficult, to connect silver and steel. I know of two techniques, laser welding or hard soldering. If someone is looking for Moro swords, here is my favorite auction site: (removed; no commercial links please) Search for "kris", including the After Sale, they have three Moro swords for sale. Last edited by Rick; 20th May 2015 at 04:07 PM.*

20th May 2015, 04:01 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Yes, they are seperate pieces . Except when they're not; sometimes it is just a scribed line of demarcation . A really well fitted ganja may be very hard to spot . I have a feeling the kris under discussion was refurbished outside of its native culture . Example of the stirrup strap running under the ferrule . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 20th May 2015 at 04:23 PM.

20th May 2015, 05:46 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A NICE SOLID LOOKING KRIS, PERHAPS TIGHT ENOUGH TO DO A LITTLE LIGHT CUTTING . HOW IS THE BALANCE AND FEEL WHEN IN HAND?

20th May 2015, 11:51 AM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Looks like a nice blade here with an old scabbard. The scabbard mounts appear new as does the leather wrap to the hilt. The silver ring to the pommel is typical to Moro hilts from the Maguindanao, Maranao, and occasionally elsewhere. It would originally have been tied together with wire. The scabbard suggests the same origins. The most curious thing I find here is the color of the ganja. It seems quite different in color to the blade, and I am wondering if it is a silver or alloy ganja. If so it would be quite unique! Looking forward to finding out more.

20th May 2015, 03:54 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	i thought the ganja was NOT connected & they were seperate pieces just held together in a press fit, the baca-bacas holding everything together. from frederico's moro swords site: ===================== Again, like their Malay cousin the antique Moro kris blade consisted of two parts, that of the blade proper and the seperate gangya (guard). On Kris made before the late 19th century this seperate gangya was evident by a straight line parallel to the guard, however at some point in the late 19th century the line went to a sharp angle when nearing the outer end of the guard. After the 1930s the seperate gangya dissappeared and the blades were made in one piece. On some modern kris there is an engraved line to symbolize the gangya but on many there is no de-marcation of any kind. ... Now the blade was ready to be merged with the handle. Some have thought that the baca-baca (clamps) served to secure the blade to the handle. While partially true in the sense that they do give support, the primary purpose of the baca-baca was to insure the mating of the ganya and the blade. It is possible that this was important as to make sure that the Jen (spirit) that inhabited the blade and gave it its superior abilities would not escape. The primary means of securing the blade to the handle was through natural resin. =================== ...and thus the ganja could be just about any metal. as noted earlier it does match the rest of the blade and is finely fitted, the patina is quite different tho. maybe it was cleaned differently when the hilt was refitted and re-wrapped?

20th May 2015, 04:15 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	on a technical engineering note, bonding dissimilar metals is an art. many of the newer USCG cutter classes (now getting a bit long in the tooth) started off with steel decks and hulls with aluminum superstuctures to save weight & add to stability. they were joined at the main deck with a lap joint with a synthetic rubber gasket, all bolted together. this made a perfect galvanic cell & the join rotted out very quickly. they discovered a trick to join them. explosive welding. they made a joint of steel on one side, aluminum on the other by exploding them together. the sides away from the joint could then be welded with normal steel and aluminum welding techiniques. the bond was so intimate it did not set up a galvanic cell. japanese smiths have been hammer welding dissimilar metals in layers for artistic weapons fittings for centuries. the hammering taking the place of explosives.

21st May 2015, 01:29 PM	#8
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	I understand, i thought, the stirrups are to weak to hold the blade and made just for decoration. Some kalis swords with separate gangya have only one stirrup and i am quite sure, this is not enough to hold the blade safely in combat.