THIEVES CAUGHT

A. G. Maisey · 19th April 2015, 11:01 PM

From 1980 through to about 1992 I took a table at gun shows in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. There were occasional thefts at these shows, but my memory tells me that nothing of much consequence was stolen.

However, amongst the dealers who attended these shows two things were taken as given:-

1) collectors steal; many collectors regard theft as a legitimate way in which to add to their collections, these thefts are sometimes uncovered many years later, after the collector dies, sometimes the thefts are never uncovered.

2) no other dealer was to be trusted as far as you could kick him.

In respect of #1 above, my specific field is the Javanese keris, and within keris lore, and Javanese belief, one of the legitimate ways in which to obtain possession of a keris, or any other magically charged item, is by theft. The rationale is that if the magically charged object does not wish to remain with the thief, it will not, however, if the thief is intended to have custody of the object, it will stay with him.

Several months ago I suffered a considerable loss through theft. If and when I am certain of the thief's identity, this person will indeed experience magic.

spiral · 20th April 2015, 09:41 PM

That's a Shame Alan... on all counts...

I am totally sure its the reality though..

With kukris they say each finds it rightful owner too..

I guess magic combined with self justification are powerful forces indeed.

I could try to make a joke about well your in Oz , the land of the convicts descendants...

But in truth I am sure its the absolutely the same everywhere.

A. G. Maisey · 20th April 2015, 11:44 PM

Yes, it is probably true that theft is a universal characteristic of human society, perhaps the residual effect of the concept of communal property that existed in more primitive societies.

It may well be that human beings are hard-wired to regard all things as theirs for the taking --- possibly in exchange for something else, possibly by deception or force.

However, the public morality of developed societies is clearly opposed to theft on a small scale, so ultimately most thieves pay a price that far exceeds the value of that which has been stolen.

I emphasise the ideas of small scale theft and public morality.

In the immortal words of Robert Zimmerman:-

"Steal a little and they put you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king"

Theft permeates our very being.

spiral · 21st April 2015, 07:04 PM

A very true quote Alan.

Psychologically I have to agree that's probably all true.... as even collecting of unnecessary items is probably also a perversion of our innate hunting instinct, First we look for our prey, searching hi & low.

Then we spot it & then hunt it down by wealth compete with the other hunters {If at Bonhams/sothebys & the private top ethnographic arms dealers etc.} Or we hunt it down by trawling the web etc. for the unrecognised & badly described pieces using our knowledge against those of the sellers & indeed once again the other hunters...

We then have that achievement of obtaining that item {The kill..}

Of course being hunter gatherers, even if the result is good, {Tasted good}{Sadly some don't...

) We are soon on the hunt for new prey again...

So I guess on our most basic of needs, theft is just another technique to achieve our prey...If we have rejected society's training in moralism.

As a friend of mine , who many decades ago who was the youngest man to ever get into the SAS was told, during psychological interviews after he explained he could easily kill a true enemy but wasn't sure he could cope with deliberately killing an innocent... "Don't worry about that you've got 19 years of civilisation in you , but a million years of survival." & " we will help get You back to that place to do whatever job is required." {first part as quoted, second as paraphrase as cant remember the exact words, just the meaning from that 30 year old conversation.}

Sancar · 22nd April 2015, 09:25 PM

Ever since I read the this thread and the aticle in the link I'm trying to imagine how the thieves managed to nick thoseguns from tables and walk away with them wthout anyone noticing. These are not wallets or small objects after all; the article mentions at least three rifles stolen this way.

ward · 22nd April 2015, 11:30 PM

Tulsa is wall to wall people and a lot of tables are packed. If you are a dealer items get traded or bought between other dealers pretty regurally. Also dealers do not go under the same security as the public. This incident is pretty unusual in this business. Modern gun dealers are not usually calm about such matters and you can pretty much guarantee that these 3 will not be welcome to shows in the future.

21st April 2015, 07:04 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	A very true quote Alan. Psychologically I have to agree that's probably all true.... as even collecting of unnecessary items is probably also a perversion of our innate hunting instinct, First we look for our prey, searching hi & low. Then we spot it & then hunt it down by wealth compete with the other hunters {If at Bonhams/sothebys & the private top ethnographic arms dealers etc.} Or we hunt it down by trawling the web etc. for the unrecognised & badly described pieces using our knowledge against those of the sellers & indeed once again the other hunters... We then have that achievement of obtaining that item {The kill..} Of course being hunter gatherers, even if the result is good, {Tasted good}{Sadly some don't... ) We are soon on the hunt for new prey again... So I guess on our most basic of needs, theft is just another technique to achieve our prey...If we have rejected society's training in moralism. As a friend of mine , who many decades ago who was the youngest man to ever get into the SAS was told, during psychological interviews after he explained he could easily kill a true enemy but wasn't sure he could cope with deliberately killing an innocent... "Don't worry about that you've got 19 years of civilisation in you , but a million years of survival." & " we will help get You back to that place to do whatever job is required." {first part as quoted, second as paraphrase as cant remember the exact words, just the meaning from that 30 year old conversation.} Last edited by spiral; 21st April 2015 at 10:00 PM.

19th April 2015, 11:01 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	From 1980 through to about 1992 I took a table at gun shows in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. There were occasional thefts at these shows, but my memory tells me that nothing of much consequence was stolen. However, amongst the dealers who attended these shows two things were taken as given:- 1) collectors steal; many collectors regard theft as a legitimate way in which to add to their collections, these thefts are sometimes uncovered many years later, after the collector dies, sometimes the thefts are never uncovered. 2) no other dealer was to be trusted as far as you could kick him. In respect of #1 above, my specific field is the Javanese keris, and within keris lore, and Javanese belief, one of the legitimate ways in which to obtain possession of a keris, or any other magically charged item, is by theft. The rationale is that if the magically charged object does not wish to remain with the thief, it will not, however, if the thief is intended to have custody of the object, it will stay with him. Several months ago I suffered a considerable loss through theft. If and when I am certain of the thief's identity, this person will indeed experience magic.

20th April 2015, 09:41 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	That's a Shame Alan... on all counts... I am totally sure its the reality though.. With kukris they say each finds it rightful owner too.. I guess magic combined with self justification are powerful forces indeed. I could try to make a joke about well your in Oz , the land of the convicts descendants... But in truth I am sure its the absolutely the same everywhere.

20th April 2015, 11:44 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes, it is probably true that theft is a universal characteristic of human society, perhaps the residual effect of the concept of communal property that existed in more primitive societies. It may well be that human beings are hard-wired to regard all things as theirs for the taking --- possibly in exchange for something else, possibly by deception or force. However, the public morality of developed societies is clearly opposed to theft on a small scale, so ultimately most thieves pay a price that far exceeds the value of that which has been stolen. I emphasise the ideas of small scale theft and public morality. In the immortal words of Robert Zimmerman:- "Steal a little and they put you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king" Theft permeates our very being.

22nd April 2015, 09:25 PM	#5
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	Ever since I read the this thread and the aticle in the link I'm trying to imagine how the thieves managed to nick thoseguns from tables and walk away with them wthout anyone noticing. These are not wallets or small objects after all; the article mentions at least three rifles stolen this way.

22nd April 2015, 11:30 PM	#6
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Tulsa is wall to wall people and a lot of tables are packed. If you are a dealer items get traded or bought between other dealers pretty regurally. Also dealers do not go under the same security as the public. This incident is pretty unusual in this business. Modern gun dealers are not usually calm about such matters and you can pretty much guarantee that these 3 will not be welcome to shows in the future.