Basket hilted swords

[Jim McDougall]

Great Eljay!! Here I thought I had this all figured out!!!
I would have to dig a bit to find those words cited, but after your beautifully supported rebuttal, I would hate to tarnish whoever it was who wrote them.

Naturally, with arms as with most things, there are countless exceptions for every rule and I must admit that most desperate attempts at neatly and concisely cataloguing, classifying and rigidly identifying certain forms are usually pretty futile. I will say however that Oakeshott, Norman and Mazansky did set some pretty reliable 'guidelines'. Even Norman however steered clear of blades due to the constant flux of trade blades and refurbishing using incongruent blade forms during the often extending working lives of sword hilts.

Thank you for the clarification, which clearly reflects the tremendous knowledge you have on these swords gained through decades of experience. Nicely stated, and it's great having your posts here!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I went back to my file of correspondence with the Baron of Earlshall, and noted that this sword was one he requested additional pictures of for his book back in 2007. The Baron dated the sword and blade 1745-65, he also thought the engraving may have been added around 1790. I still query the sanity of anyone having this particular inscription added to a blade they intended to carry in a British regiment. William Wallace was after all executed as a traitor to the English King, not something easily forgiven. Also, there had obviously been an attempt to destroy the blade when it surfaced in England, so evidently someone was far from happy about it.

Having seen the French basket hilts posted I began to wonder if this sword was actually carried by an Ex-Pat Scott living in France after Culloden. I believe Scots fought on both sides of the Culloden campaign, perhaps this one became Patriotic after he had left the country, sadly we will never really know.

With regard to Darlings comment “if it isn't a broadsword then it isn't Scottish” has probably been taken out of context. Jim as you say the word broadsword is often applied to blades that are actually backswords. I suppose it’s a bit like calling a basket hilt a claymore, when claymores where actually two handed swords.

In the end I concur with Eljay, the Scots had both Broadsword Blades and Backsword blades, and as most of these where imported they have no real relevance to whether a sword is Scottish or English. Generally I usually look at the pommel, if it is the common bun shaped it is likely English. Then of course there are all the other variations Spiracle, Cone shaped, flat bun etc. I have just popped a letter in the post to the Baron; hopefully he will confirm a publishing date for the first volume of his book soon.

While I have your attention Eljay, a while back you posed a question of Sword forum, when did the S disappear from the SH stamped in the Fox mark on Harvey blades, did you ever find the answer?

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I went back to my file of correspondence with the Baron of Earlshall, and noted that this sword was one he requested additional pictures of for his book back in 2007. The Baron dated the sword and blade 1745-65, he also thought the engraving may have been added around 1790. I still query the sanity of anyone having this particular inscription added to a blade they intended to carry in a British regiment. William Wallace was after all executed as a traitor to the English King, not something easily forgiven. Also, there had obviously been an attempt to destroy the blade when it surfaced in England, so evidently someone was far from happy about it.

Having seen the French basket hilts posted I began to wonder if this sword was actually carried by an Ex-Pat Scott living in France after Culloden. I believe Scots fought on both sides of the Culloden campaign, perhaps this one became Patriotic after he had left the country, sadly we will never really know.

With regard to Darlings comment “if it isn't a broadsword then it isn't Scottish” has probably been taken out of context. Jim as you say the word broadsword is often applied to blades that are actually backswords. I suppose it’s a bit like calling a basket hilt a claymore, when claymores where actually two handed swords.

In the end I concur with Eljay, the Scots had both Broadsword Blades and Backsword blades, and as most of these where imported they have no real relevance to whether a sword is Scottish or English. Generally I usually look at the pommel, if it is the common bun shaped it is likely English. Then of course there are all the other variations Spiracle, Cone shaped, flat bun etc. I have just popped a letter in the post to the Baron; hopefully he will confirm a publishing date for the first volume of his book soon.

While I have your attention Eljay, a while back you posed a question of Sword forum, when did the S disappear from the SH stamped in the Fox mark on Harvey blades, did you ever find the answer?

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Salaams Cathey, After getting slightly tied up in knots chasing non existent potential Irish hilt makers....which of course there aren't any...I then became drawn into a debate with myself about European Baskets....and then the inevitable twist which is the Schiavona.

I have my own theory on how this sleight of hand; ..The Irish Basket Hilt name came about based upon the fact that Scottish mercenaries to Sweden in the early 17th Century(1611) consisting of 800 such fighters were called Irishmen and that the trend continued but on the appearance of the basket hilt the term migrated to the hilt misnomer Irish Basket Hilt...simply by association...but a wrong one.

What I have discovered ...and it is understandable how the Earl has accumulated such a vast series of books and how difficult it must have been to stop taking notes/researching and start making the books! (and I will be after a copy of the collection soon as it comes out) is how convoluted the whole story is as it rolls out...In studying the Jacobite rebellion it becomes clear how many weapons were being supplied to the rebels and how many were sunk either by storm or by the English Navy and that a lot of these weapons came from /were collected by.. the French...who probably got them from Solingen ! or somewhere else...

What I found for beginners like me was a very reasonable account on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword and an excellent set of resources at the end including excellent photos at external links . and although these are from Scottish Museum sources it doesn't matter...I hope this helps.

I think it sets the balance and helps the beginner view the entire puzzle as it comes together.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim thank you for the input here, and the interesting notes on the explanations regarding the Irish/Scottish misnomer, which indeed often became somewhat misleading. Interestingly the events you mention with the Scottish mercenaries in Sweden and Norway reveal an interesting potential for the source of the basket hilts which became known as 'Highland'. It is further interesting that those sabres with basket hilts in Northern Europe became known as 'Sinclair' sabres in a further misomer having to do with one of the officers of Scottish forces in these campaigns.

In looking further into this sword of Cathey's, which is indeed an intriguing anomaly, I think the possibility suggested for the engraving having been done c.1790's is of course quite possible. I also feel that the sword was most certainly that of an officer in one of the Scottish regiments, as these men were given considerable latitude in matters of kit and weapons. In those times of course, supplying troops was the personal choice and responsibility of the colonels of their own regiments, and officers purchased their rank and commission, so given those circumstances it is quite understandable such carte blanche would be afforded them.

Perhaps the use of this earlier style hilt of English dragoons and in a Scottish regiment of cavalry would better explain the retention of the earlier sword and better placement of 1790s in its use.
While the engraving of this clearly pro-Scottish commemorative on the blade would seem bold, it must be remembered that Scot's are vehemently patriotic and proud, and such fervor, especially on the sword of an officer, would in no way be considered subversive. Things were quite different politically by then, and celebration of heroes of such early times was certainly allowable. While nationality was of course always an ever present notion, they co existed in these units as 'British'.

There was also some degree of national tension between Scots and Irish, but in battle, units such as Inniskilings and Royal Scots Greys rode together with great respect for each other in battle, in my own perception.

With regard to my apparent 'gaff' on the predominance of the broadsword as distinctly Scottish, in further looking and still not finding the source, I am thinking the comment (obviously too adamant) may have been geared toward 'typical' earlier Scottish basket hilts. As noted in German records, the Scots preferred heavy broadsword blades, perhaps more for their notably distinct style of swordsmanship , and that these clansmen were basically 'infantry' rather than cavalry. The single edged blade in my opinion became popular in the 18th century for dragoons (though these troops fought on foot mostly) and later cavalry for mounted combat.

The use of broadsword (DE) blades on cavalry swords was of course certainly occasional, but typically in the exceptions noted. Naturally blades used often lent to availability in many cases, so that might account for variations. Rehilting of hilts such as those found at Culloden might have been ersatz examples using either captured or otherwise obtained blades from perhaps English sources. Cross traffic in blades of course knows no borders ( I have a 'mortuary' with Andrea Ferara blade).

I think the comment on the broadsword (DE) blades would have been better worded as Scottish warriors pre Culloden 'preferred' those blades, and the term 'axiom' left out

[stephen wood]

I also think the florid acid etching on the blade is Victorian or maybe earlier. The claim to be Wallace's sword seems ridiculous to us but would not have seemed so in the past. Quite a few swords said to have belonged to historical characters actually have provenance.

[Cathey]

Hi Stephen,

I think the engraving was purely patriotic, however I doubt we will ever know what the thinking was behind this one at the time. Anyway, I thought I would move on to another interesting area, the use of the S-Bar in hilt design. I note that Eljay has already posted one of his examples so I thought I would add this one with the unusual Black Jappaned hilt

BASKET-HILT Scottish Infantry Officer’s
Date Circa 1690-1710 (17th - 18th Century)?
Nationality Scottish
Overall Length 96.5 cm (38 inches)
Blade length 83 cm (32.7 inches)
Blade widest point 3 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point
Inside grip length
Marks, etc The numbers 1 5 1 5 inscribed in the fuller followed by to small marks inlaid with brass.

Description
BASKET-HILT Scottish Infantry Officer’s broadsword circa 1690-1710. Blade 32 3/4 ins. (83cm). Hilt retains japanning and is the S type basket. Blade is in good condition and has what appears to be the numbers 1 5 1 5 inscribed in the fuller followed by to small marks inlaid with brass. Grip is made of wood.

References:
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ARMS COLLECTORS: BOOK OF Edged Weapons. Pp200 plate 5
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 371
BOTTOMLEY, Andrew. Catalogue No 6 item no 580 Pp78
CURTIS, T. Lysle Price guide Militaria Arms & Armour 1993. Pp108
DARLING.A.D. Weapons of the Highland Regiments 1740-1780. Pp15.
OAKESHOTT, E. European Weapons and Armour. (See Claymore) pp 175-182.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

This is an outstanding example, and Cathey I would like to say again how grateful I am that you are posting such magnificent examples of these basket hilts here!! Since these have been a true passion of mine since very young, it means a lot to see them and to have the opportunity to learn from them. There has been little written on them for many years, and I look forward to the Baron of Earshall's work. The fact that he has been working on it for so many years is testament to his keen attention to detail and accuracy, and I am sure it will be a monumental work for generations of collectors and scholars to come.

I wanted to add some notes regarding the blade and inscription, but placed it on a new thread so as not to detract from attention to the hilt work.
It is established that most writers on these hilts deliberately avoided attention to the blades on these swords to keep focus on the hilts, which are truly a complex enough subject alone, so I wanted to follow that course and avoid duplicating my previous faux pas.

I hope those interested in notes on this or other pertaining to the blades on basket hilted swords will visit the other thread as well. Thank you.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim thank you for the input here, and the interesting notes on the explanations regarding the Irish/Scottish misnomer, which indeed often became somewhat misleading. Interestingly the events you mention with the Scottish mercenaries in Sweden and Norway reveal an interesting potential for the source of the basket hilts which became known as 'Highland'. It is further interesting that those sabres with basket hilts in Northern Europe became known as 'Sinclair' sabres in a further misomer having to do with one of the officers of Scottish forces in these campaigns.

In looking further into this sword of Cathey's, which is indeed an intriguing anomaly, I think the possibility suggested for the engraving having been done c.1790's is of course quite possible. I also feel that the sword was most certainly that of an officer in one of the Scottish regiments, as these men were given considerable latitude in matters of kit and weapons. In those times of course, supplying troops was the personal choice and responsibility of the colonels of their own regiments, and officers purchased their rank and commission, so given those circumstances it is quite understandable such carte blanche would be afforded them.

Perhaps the use of this earlier style hilt of English dragoons and in a Scottish regiment of cavalry would better explain the retention of the earlier sword and better placement of 1790s in its use.
While the engraving of this clearly pro-Scottish commemorative on the blade would seem bold, it must be remembered that Scot's are vehemently patriotic and proud, and such fervor, especially on the sword of an officer, would in no way be considered subversive. Things were quite different politically by then, and celebration of heroes of such early times was certainly allowable. While nationality was of course always an ever present notion, they co existed in these units as 'British'.

There was also some degree of national tension between Scots and Irish, but in battle, units such as Inniskilings and Royal Scots Greys rode together with great respect for each other in battle, in my own perception.

With regard to my apparent 'gaff' on the predominance of the broadsword as distinctly Scottish, in further looking and still not finding the source, I am thinking the comment (obviously too adamant) may have been geared toward 'typical' earlier Scottish basket hilts. As noted in German records, the Scots preferred heavy broadsword blades, perhaps more for their notably distinct style of swordsmanship , and that these clansmen were basically 'infantry' rather than cavalry. The single edged blade in my opinion became popular in the 18th century for dragoons (though these troops fought on foot mostly) and later cavalry for mounted combat.

The use of broadsword (DE) blades on cavalry swords was of course certainly occasional, but typically in the exceptions noted. Naturally blades used often lent to availability in many cases, so that might account for variations. Rehilting of hilts such as those found at Culloden might have been ersatz examples using either captured or otherwise obtained blades from perhaps English sources. Cross traffic in blades of course knows no borders ( I have a 'mortuary' with Andrea Ferara blade).

I think the comment on the broadsword (DE) blades would have been better worded as Scottish warriors pre Culloden 'preferred' those blades, and the term 'axiom' left out

Salaams Jim, Thanks for your reply...I would say that of all the sword styles affecting European Armoury that this form has the longest and most convoluted story of all. As you note the Sinclair and of course the Andre Ferrera detail included in this sword and in the peculiar moon blade marks etc make it a vital cornerstone for any study of European Arms...and it is hardly surprising that there will soon be a 7 volume work on the subject by the Baron of Earshall...For beginners, boffins and experts this will be a first rate background on which to hang their hat...
In my mentioning the Scottish Highlander Mercs of the Swedish Army ..that was in Stettin but the date is amended to 1630...I have the sketch but annoyingly I cant get it from one computer to the other but I have it on camera and will post soon..In respect of the earlier warriors I wonder when in fact the idea started for the basket hilt in Scotland... It isn't there in the Stettin sketch at all...

I note that the thread moves on to discus the S decoration and geometry to the hilt. I also see below the S shape a Fleur de Lyse further broadening the story. I note one or two other instances of the S shape particularly in the No 4 picture of the Border Reiver basket Hilts...kindly posted at #63 by Cathey. In fact staying with the Border Reiver story please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers for a fascinating view of this situation that developed on both sides of the so called
border.

Sketching in some detail on the Fleur de lis from wikepedia ~

Fleurs-de-lis feature prominently in the Crown Jewels of England and Scotland. In English heraldry, they are used in many different ways, and can be the cadency mark of the sixth son. Additionally, it features in a large amount of royal arms of the House of Plantagenet, from the 13th century onwards to the early Tudors (Elizabeth of York and the de la Pole family.)

The tressure flory-counterflory (flowered border) has been a prominent part of the design of the Scottish royal arms and Royal Standard since James I of Scotland.

The treasured fleur-de-luce he claims
To wreathe his shield, since royal James
—Sir Walter Scott
The Lay of the Last Minstrel

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.