Basket hilted swords

ulfberth · 7th April 2015, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Hello Ulfberth,
I'll do some speculating about that sword that you posted with the French blade: the hilt is a Scottish "Glasgow" type hilt, and I would bet that the sword was brought over to France by a Jacobite, who then had it rebladed to show his new allegiance. If only these could talk!!

--ElJay

Hi ElJay, that is an logical thought and keeping history in account it could very well be the case here, and were one did this there were probably more that followed.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Cathey · 7th April 2015, 11:41 PM

Hi Ulfberth,

I concur with Eljays thoughts on this sword and was wondering if you had any more pictures of this sword you could post. It would be great to see a close up of the hilt and pommel etc.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

ulfberth · 8th April 2015, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Ulfberth,

I concur with Eljays thoughts on this sword and was wondering if you had any more pictures of this sword you could post. It would be great to see a close up of the hilt and pommel etc.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hi Cathey,

unfortunately not the sword is the French Museum de l'Empéri
However I did find these, only with permission, with copyright
Bertrand Malvaux dealer in antique arms France.

The Original drawings by Michel PÉTARD pour l'ouvrage de Monsieur Christian ARIÈS «Les Armes Blanches Militaires Françaises» (1966-1990, 30 cahiers).

the disctription that goes wit them is:
FORTE-ÉPÉE À L’ÉCOSSAISE D’OFFICIER de la fin du XVIIe à la guerre de Sept Ans; planche 1, TOME V, 3ème fascicule 1967.

Kind regards
Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2015, 04:28 AM

Ulfberth thank you so much for posting these amazing works by Petard!!!
This resource by Aries is hard to acquire, cost alone and not sure how many volumes in total, so very grateful for you sharing these....not to mention how intriguing it is to discover French versions of basket hilts!
I had no idea, but makes perfect sense since the Jacobite circumstances.

Cathey · 9th April 2015, 07:14 AM

Hi Ulfberth,

I agree with Jim these are fabulous drawings, it would be great to access an English translation of what text may have accompanied them in the original book.

Now here is an Odd Basket for consideration.

English Dragoon Basket Hilt?
Date Circa 1760-1780 (18th Century) ?
Nationality British Dragoon Basket (Scottish Regiment) -Scottish Patriotic Blade
Overall Length 107.2cm (42.2 inches)
Blade length 91.4 cm (36 inches)
Blade widest point 3.687 cm (1.5 inches)
Hilt widest point
Inside grip length

Description
English Dragoon Basket Hilt? with a Scottish 36 “ (91.4 cm) back blade with two fullers, double edged for last 11 “ (28.1 cm). Along the top of the area of decoration on the blade are the words “this was the sword of the immortal saviour” below this is the Scottish Lion flanked on either side with foliage decoration then below that the words “ Wallace Regent of Scotland A.D. 1298.”

General Remarks
This sword originally came to Australia from Arbour Antiques London where it was purchased by a friend many years ago. When Arbour received the sword, the blade had been completely bent over at the hilt as if someone had sought to destroy it or at least render it useless. My understanding is that Arbour had the blade reheated and straightened and the sword restored to its current condition. Reheating the blade has removed colour from one side. The sword has a typically English Pommel but there is an area of engraved decoration that does not seem to fit with the sword serving in an English Regiment. Along the top of the area of decoration are the words “this was the sword of the immortal saviour” below this is the Scottish Lion flanked on either side with foliage decoration then below that the words “ Wallace Regent of Scotland A.D. 1298.”

I have difficulty believing that an English soldier would dare carry a blade in the memory of William Wallace, or that a Scot serving in an English regiment would take such a risk. According to Pat Tougher “Scottish Sword and Shield” This sword is an odd one. The pommel and the basket appear to be English dragoon 1760 thru to 1780. The blade he feels is older, possibly a pickup form the battle of Culloden, 1746. He advised that there were many English troops who picked up swords after the battle and kept them as they were better than what they had. Pat has a few in his possession. Unfortunately with no writing on them.

Haydn Vesty, Australian Waterloo Sword Collector, believes it is a 1745 Etched Patriotic Blade, for an Officer in Scottish Dragoon Guards regiment, which were part of the British Cavalry.

I still think it would be either a very brave or rather stupid Scott to carry such a thing in an English regiment.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

E.B. Erickson · 9th April 2015, 02:50 PM

Hi Cathey,
That is an odd one. If it weren't for the etching one would just ID it as an English cav/dragoon sword. What I really find unusual is the reference to Wallace.

Haydn Vesty's hypothesis seems like it would work, but are there any other examples of this type of etched motto on a sword from the 1700s so we can verify his opinion?

Here's another hypothesis: there was a revival of interest in all things Scottish in England in the first half of the 1800s (I'm not sure I've got the date right). Perhaps the blade was etched at that time. So you'd have a good baskethilted sword from the 1700s with later commemorative etching. But again, are there similar etched designs dating from the Scottish revival?

Just rambling. --ElJay

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2015, 06:46 PM

I personally echo Eljay's comments, this type of blade is indeed of 18th century English dragoon style, and of course Cathey's observations on the hilt as English and period are spot on.

There is an old 'axiom' that I have seen issued by Anthony Darling (I believe) which says loosely if it isn't a broadsword (meaning double edged, the term was used for both SE and DE in the 18th c.) then it isn't Scottish.
This seems to hold true as the dragoon swords produced for the British regiments were in accord with accepted military standards using single edged backsword blades.
It is a truly romantic notion that this blade might have come from the tragedy at Culloden, wielded by a patriotic Scot, but unfortunately not likely.
This tragic day was of course furthered by the disrespectful and patently heinous act of dismantling the broadswords of fallen Scots there, and using some of them in a garish garden fence.

As Eljay has well noted, the style of etching and likely even the content seem to correspond to the heightened awareness and revival of things Scottish in the Victorian era. In these times of course there was great attention to Scottish lore, history and fashion . Even the Royals would wear kilts etc. and in the military, officers in particular were rightfully proud of their Scottish heritage.
The '45 was a century or more in the past, and Scottish heritage was not only flaunted but a mark of prestige.

I think this blade more likely decorated later, though the blade seems of the period of the hilt. Despite the fact it is a sword of troopers grade in the hilt, it does not seem unlikely that an officer in a British cavalry unit might have had this sword beautifully inscribed reflecting the pride of the true Scots and their heritage.

7th April 2015, 11:41 PM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	French Basket hilt Hi Ulfberth, I concur with Eljays thoughts on this sword and was wondering if you had any more pictures of this sword you could post. It would be great to see a close up of the hilt and pommel etc. Cheers Cathey and Rex

9th April 2015, 07:14 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	English Dragoon Basket Hilt? Hi Ulfberth, I agree with Jim these are fabulous drawings, it would be great to access an English translation of what text may have accompanied them in the original book. Now here is an Odd Basket for consideration. English Dragoon Basket Hilt? Date Circa 1760-1780 (18th Century) ? Nationality British Dragoon Basket (Scottish Regiment) -Scottish Patriotic Blade Overall Length 107.2cm (42.2 inches) Blade length 91.4 cm (36 inches) Blade widest point 3.687 cm (1.5 inches) Hilt widest point Inside grip length Description English Dragoon Basket Hilt? with a Scottish 36 “ (91.4 cm) back blade with two fullers, double edged for last 11 “ (28.1 cm). Along the top of the area of decoration on the blade are the words “this was the sword of the immortal saviour” below this is the Scottish Lion flanked on either side with foliage decoration then below that the words “ Wallace Regent of Scotland A.D. 1298.” General Remarks This sword originally came to Australia from Arbour Antiques London where it was purchased by a friend many years ago. When Arbour received the sword, the blade had been completely bent over at the hilt as if someone had sought to destroy it or at least render it useless. My understanding is that Arbour had the blade reheated and straightened and the sword restored to its current condition. Reheating the blade has removed colour from one side. The sword has a typically English Pommel but there is an area of engraved decoration that does not seem to fit with the sword serving in an English Regiment. Along the top of the area of decoration are the words “this was the sword of the immortal saviour” below this is the Scottish Lion flanked on either side with foliage decoration then below that the words “ Wallace Regent of Scotland A.D. 1298.” I have difficulty believing that an English soldier would dare carry a blade in the memory of William Wallace, or that a Scot serving in an English regiment would take such a risk. According to Pat Tougher “Scottish Sword and Shield” This sword is an odd one. The pommel and the basket appear to be English dragoon 1760 thru to 1780. The blade he feels is older, possibly a pickup form the battle of Culloden, 1746. He advised that there were many English troops who picked up swords after the battle and kept them as they were better than what they had. Pat has a few in his possession. Unfortunately with no writing on them. Haydn Vesty, Australian Waterloo Sword Collector, believes it is a 1745 Etched Patriotic Blade, for an Officer in Scottish Dragoon Guards regiment, which were part of the British Cavalry. I still think it would be either a very brave or rather stupid Scott to carry such a thing in an English regiment. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

9th April 2015, 04:28 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	Ulfberth thank you so much for posting these amazing works by Petard!!! This resource by Aries is hard to acquire, cost alone and not sure how many volumes in total, so very grateful for you sharing these....not to mention how intriguing it is to discover French versions of basket hilts! I had no idea, but makes perfect sense since the Jacobite circumstances.

9th April 2015, 02:50 PM	#6
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Hi Cathey, That is an odd one. If it weren't for the etching one would just ID it as an English cav/dragoon sword. What I really find unusual is the reference to Wallace. Haydn Vesty's hypothesis seems like it would work, but are there any other examples of this type of etched motto on a sword from the 1700s so we can verify his opinion? Here's another hypothesis: there was a revival of interest in all things Scottish in England in the first half of the 1800s (I'm not sure I've got the date right). Perhaps the blade was etched at that time. So you'd have a good baskethilted sword from the 1700s with later commemorative etching. But again, are there similar etched designs dating from the Scottish revival? Just rambling. --ElJay

9th April 2015, 06:46 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	I personally echo Eljay's comments, this type of blade is indeed of 18th century English dragoon style, and of course Cathey's observations on the hilt as English and period are spot on. There is an old 'axiom' that I have seen issued by Anthony Darling (I believe) which says loosely if it isn't a broadsword (meaning double edged, the term was used for both SE and DE in the 18th c.) then it isn't Scottish. This seems to hold true as the dragoon swords produced for the British regiments were in accord with accepted military standards using single edged backsword blades. It is a truly romantic notion that this blade might have come from the tragedy at Culloden, wielded by a patriotic Scot, but unfortunately not likely. This tragic day was of course furthered by the disrespectful and patently heinous act of dismantling the broadswords of fallen Scots there, and using some of them in a garish garden fence. As Eljay has well noted, the style of etching and likely even the content seem to correspond to the heightened awareness and revival of things Scottish in the Victorian era. In these times of course there was great attention to Scottish lore, history and fashion . Even the Royals would wear kilts etc. and in the military, officers in particular were rightfully proud of their Scottish heritage. The '45 was a century or more in the past, and Scottish heritage was not only flaunted but a mark of prestige. I think this blade more likely decorated later, though the blade seems of the period of the hilt. Despite the fact it is a sword of troopers grade in the hilt, it does not seem unlikely that an officer in a British cavalry unit might have had this sword beautifully inscribed reflecting the pride of the true Scots and their heritage.