Basket hilted swords

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

While the point that it is true that Scottish, and for that matter many British swords, may be considered 'composite' as they are comprised of local hilts and imported blades....it is typically preferred that these pairings are within the working life of the components .
Since these dragoon hilts as far as known ceased use in the 18th century, the use of blades much later mounted in them is puzzling.
Obviously the question stands as , are these indeed German blades of the 18th century rather than kaskara 'masri' blades of late 19th c.?
If these are actually early German blades, then it is a powerful revelation in many years of research on these North African blades, and it would be amazing to prove that blades with these triple fullers and these corrupted moons were produced that early.

Dr L.C. Briggs wrote his venerable treatise on sword blades in North Africa in 1965 (JAAS, Vol. V, #2 pp.37-92) where he notes on p43, "...I have seen no Taureg weapon with half moon marks which I felt were surely European".

Sir Francis Rodd (1928) in "People of the Veil", p.233, "..the masri blades are made in the north. Most prized are those with two or three slight cancellations down the middle. The commonest masri blades bear two opposed crescent men in moon crescent marks".

Hi Jim,

Just a brief footnote, as the owner of quite a few of these export oriented triple fullers, I have no problem with many of them being placed in the 18th century potentially. Certainly I would not say the majority are in the latter part of the 19th, but at least the first half of the 19th.

See known examples from colonial activity in Algeria etc with early dates which points to at least late 18th century hilting...

Anyways not to disrupt the discussion on the hilt types. Just wanted to clarify that in an African/non European context these triple fullers are probably falling into the 18th century as much as the 19th in terms of manufacture.

There are subtle differences between the older ones and the later ones, mainly to do with a more rounded profile of the blade, giving a slight arch to the cross section sloping to the cutting edges, while the later ones are completely flat on the faces of the blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Jim,

Just a brief footnote, as the owner of quite a few of these export oriented triple fullers, I have no problem with many of them being placed in the 18th century potentially. Certainly I would not say the majority are in the latter part of the 19th, but at least the first half of the 19th.

See known examples from colonial activity in Algeria etc with early dates which points to at least late 18th century hilting...

Anyways not to disrupt the discussion on the hilt types. Just wanted to clarify that in an African/non European context these triple fullers are probably falling into the 18th century as much as the 19th in terms of manufacture.

There are subtle differences between the older ones and the later ones, mainly to do with a more rounded profile of the blade, giving a slight arch to the cross section sloping to the cutting edges, while the later ones are completely flat on the faces of the blade.

Thanks very much on the clarification Iain, and you're right, many of these triple fullered blades certainly could be attributed to the 18th century. As you recall it seems that these days, most of these kinds of blades found in North African settings are typically of 19th century. It is hard to say exactly what period of 19th century as blades were constantly recycled and used for often countless generations as well as intratribally traded.

My point was directed toward the dukari type moons of the masri blades, which as Briggs notes, were a phenomenon restricted to North African context. While many of these blades arrived in Africa from Germany entirely unmarked, at some point the native armourers added these talismanically significant paired moons probably to those blades as well as the copies of them produced locally.

The paired moons of the dukari began in context as well recognizable versions of the astral themes often seen on European blades. The moon was particularly key to tribal folk religion and probably adapted readily to their 'magical' perceptions, and duality is another often applied allegorical instance.
We know that swords, particularly in the case of the Sudan, were not necessarily widely used tribally until the Mahdist period. Until then most tribes used spears or makeshift weapons, as evidenced in these campigns in their outset. In time, the moons applied to blades (actually these occur more commonly on Tuareg blades which are typically smaller), became remarkably degenerated . They became less recognizable and almost geometric stylizations, as seen on the blades of our discussion on the 1745 Anglo-Irish hilt.

The question is..why would a German blade, even of that mid 18th century vintage, end up with markings of a type distinct to 19th century North Africa? and appear in a hilt form that ceased use by the 1780s by British cavalry units, and the terminus ante quem of these moons is 19th century with these in form likely the latter part.

All the best,
Jim

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I just want to put this to bed and get the thread back to its intended subject Basket Hilts not African blades.

Let me be clear, my sword has a German blade circa 1700, this has been confirmed by the Baron of Earshall who is the world’s foremost authority on basket hilted swords. I have seen at least seven identical examples and to even suggest someone ran around the world switching the blades over for 19th century African blade makes no sense at all. By the way one of these swords is a hand and a half in the Tower of London collection.

Variations of the crescent moon have featured on European blades dating back to the sixteen hundreds, if you want to know more go to:
SOCKEL Johan F HAANDSKYDEVAABENS BEDOMMELSE Volumes 1& 2 International Encyclopedia of the Firearms Manufacturers and Marks from 1400-1900
GYNGELL, Dudley S. Hawtrey ARMOURERS MARKS
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS

If those of you interested in African blades wish to continue your debate, please start your own thread, I beg you. I have been trying draw out those interested in Basket hilts for a long time and fear this attempt will also fail if we don’t get back on topic.

This being said I am now posting another basket in the hopes that we can get back on topic and encourage other basket hilt enthusiast to contribute.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

Date Circa 1640-1660
Nationality Scottish/English
Overall Length 99.2 cm (39.1 inches)
Blade length 86.7 cm (34.1 inches)
Blade widest point 3.8 cm (1.5 inches)
Hilt widest point 10.5 cm (4.1 inches)
Inside grip length 10 cm (3.9 inches)
Marks, etc. Three Kings Heads

Description
Early Basket Hilt with flat bun pommel, wooden grip with large iron bands top and bottom. The Guard is made up of circular iron branches with two square junction plates and forward guards. The terminal of the side guards is crude with lined decoration. The plates have lined decoration at each corner. The branches join in three groups and butt up against the pommel. The blade is wider than the slot in the hilt. The broadsword blade has no fuller and is German bearing three king’s heads indicating Solingen manufacture.

General Remarks
Described in correspondence from the Baron of Earlshall as “Date c1640-1660, blade 17th century and contemporary to the basket and made by the Wunderberg blade makers of Solingen.

Cheers Cathey And Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I just want to put this to bed and get the thread back to its intended subject Basket Hilts not African blades.

Let me be clear, my sword has a German blade circa 1700, this has been confirmed by the Baron of Earshall who is the world’s foremost authority on basket hilted swords. I have seen at least seven identical examples and to even suggest someone ran around the world switching the blades over for 19th century African blade makes no sense at all. By the way one of these swords is a hand and a half in the Tower of London collection.

Variations of the crescent moon have featured on European blades dating back to the sixteen hundreds, if you want to know more go to:
SOCKEL Johan F HAANDSKYDEVAABENS BEDOMMELSE Volumes 1& 2 International Encyclopedia of the Firearms Manufacturers and Marks from 1400-1900
GYNGELL, Dudley S. Hawtrey ARMOURERS MARKS
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS

If those of you interested in African blades wish to continue your debate, please start your own thread, I beg you. I have been trying draw out those interested in Basket hilts for a long time and fear this attempt will also fail if we don’t get back on topic.

This being said I am now posting another basket in the hopes that we can get back on topic and encourage other basket hilt enthusiast to contribute.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

That is an excellent suggestion Cathey, and my posts on the topic of these African blades are of course clearly digressing from the theme of this thread which has been most informative and helpful on basket hilts. These swords are fascinating and very much deserving of continued research to add to core of extant data which exists, and often hard to obtain.

I will note that the contention concerning this blade on the Anglo-Irish hilt with anomalous crescent moons brings key attention to questions on the origins and development of these marks to which answers have been long sought in investigations on Solingen blades. Ironically, since Scottish swords as you have noted, were virtually always mounted with these blades, it was a quite likely context for this attention to arise.

I will post the blade topic on another thread as you suggest, and hope that participants here will continue the excellent discourse and focus on these basket hilts.