Is This A Royal Keris?

A. G. Maisey · 4th March 2015, 02:27 AM

Yes, David, of course you are correct if we consider this question from the perspective of people who have little or no knowledge of the keris, but this same problem exists in probably every field involving art and collectables.

I also collect paper weights. The very best of the current paper weights produced in China will fool anybody but a fully qualified expert into thinking they've got Murano or Caithness, when in fact they've got Beijing.

The protection against being duped?

Learn.

Learn how?

You can never ever get enough field experience, and this does not come easily, nor cheaply.

In respect of restriction on the use of gold in Jawa, there are a lot of perspectives from which to consider this question.

I think we all know the grant of battle honours by Sultan Agung after the Pati conflict, so although there may not have been a specific prohibition in place that prevented somebody not granted this honour to have a keris with a similar kinatah motif, within the context of court wear it simply would not have been done, because the honour had not been given.

Think in terms of a present day civilian creating his own Victoria Cross and then wearing it to a Royal Reception with Her Majesty. Just not going to happen.

What would have happened if it had been done would probably have involved blood and pain.

But that's within the context of the court. How about if a wealthy Arab merchant living in the world outside the court created a look-a-like a few years later? I sincerely doubt that anything untoward would have happened to him.

So with a question like this, we need to consider not just "Jawa", but the specific part of Jawa, the specific time, the specific people involved, the specific ruler. All relevant aspects of the question need to be considered on a case by case basis. We cannot generalise.

David · 4th March 2015, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So with a question like this, we need to consider not just "Jawa", but the specific part of Jawa, the specific time, the specific people involved, the specific ruler. All relevant aspects of the question need to be considered on a case by case basis. We cannot generalise.

Well of course not Alan. That is why i stated in post #9 "I am not sure that the prohibition against commoners wearing gold extended to places like Jawa, Bali and Sumatra, at least not as a general rule."
I suppose when i ventured a few posts later that "i was hoping that you might add some information about any known proscriptions against wearing gold in Jawa, Bali or Madura" that is might be those very specifics we'd be talking about.

Battara · 4th March 2015, 10:58 PM

I'm glad this discussion hasn't died just yet. I now understand better the situation and answer...........

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2015, 10:44 AM

Well David, I did touch on one specific possibility, but to pursue this line of thought further, I believe we would probably need to address the matter on a situational basis, and to do that we would need to phase a question such as this:- were the members of the Cirebon Keraton hierarchic at all levels permitted to wear gold on their kerises on all occasions, during the period such & such to such & such?

Then it would be necessary to research this very broad ranging question, if that were possible. Possibly we might find that they could wear gold under some circumstances, and not under others, so then we would need to pin down the specific times and specific circumstances.

The way to approach this matter would be to state a rank, time, situation and court. Then try to find out something, and that something may or may not be available.

Its just not an easy question David, and we cannot use a shotgun approach, we need to specify all the parameters and then hope we can find an answer, which could well be impossible.

David · 6th March 2015, 02:44 PM

I certainly agree with you on specificity Alan. However, what i think we are trying to establish in this case is the likelihood of a well dressed keris with old kinatah or other gold embellishments being a "Royal Keris". To get an idea of that likelihood i would say that any tales of specific proscriptions would at least get us started in this discussion. Of course, to get specific here, that first keris posted in the original question appears to be a Palembang keris from (perhaps) some time in the 19th century. So if we are going to answer José's question we need to be looking at the Palembang court from that time period. I have not personally found much reading material on Sumatran courts and don't know if finding the answer here is possible or not. As with many things to due with the keris, answers are not always available. That does not usually dissuade me, however, from asking the question.

I also have a nice Palembang keris with a very similar gold pattern applied by what appears to be the same method. I agree with you that this (and mine) was most likely owned by a wealthy man such as a merchant rather than a a royal. So to couch my question more specifically, are you (or anyone) aware of any particular proscriptions on having gold on your keris in the Palembang court from this time period? You are, of course, correct that we would need to look closely at the specific court and time period for any keris we were to poise this question about and take them on a singular basis.

A. G. Maisey · 7th March 2015, 10:28 AM

If we are going to talk about Palembang, I'm afraid I cannot make any relevant contribution, although Palembang does have a recognised connection to the Javanese courts it is an area that I have never paid much attention to. Further being away from home I do not access to any references that might of use, all I have is the net, and I'm afraid I have not a great deal of faith in what is available there. Most especially so as I am currently using computers that take minutes to reload a page. One short email can take 10 or fifteen minutes to take care of.

But in any case, I think that perhaps the first thing that needs to be defined is exactly what is meant by the term "royal keris".

I used to have an exceptionally fine example of this type of Palembang keris, gold selut, finely carved ivory hilt, rose gold (suasa) pendok, very high quality kinatah. Regrettably it has been stolen. May the scumbag who now has it never sleep again.

Battara · 7th March 2015, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I used to have an exceptionally fine example of this type of Palembang keris, gold selut, finely carved ivory hilt, rose gold (suasa) pendok, very high quality kinatah. Regrettably it has been stolen. May the scumbag who now has it never sleep again.

I hear you and understand............unfortunately.

4th March 2015, 02:27 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes, David, of course you are correct if we consider this question from the perspective of people who have little or no knowledge of the keris, but this same problem exists in probably every field involving art and collectables. I also collect paper weights. The very best of the current paper weights produced in China will fool anybody but a fully qualified expert into thinking they've got Murano or Caithness, when in fact they've got Beijing. The protection against being duped? Learn. Learn how? You can never ever get enough field experience, and this does not come easily, nor cheaply. In respect of restriction on the use of gold in Jawa, there are a lot of perspectives from which to consider this question. I think we all know the grant of battle honours by Sultan Agung after the Pati conflict, so although there may not have been a specific prohibition in place that prevented somebody not granted this honour to have a keris with a similar kinatah motif, within the context of court wear it simply would not have been done, because the honour had not been given. Think in terms of a present day civilian creating his own Victoria Cross and then wearing it to a Royal Reception with Her Majesty. Just not going to happen. What would have happened if it had been done would probably have involved blood and pain. But that's within the context of the court. How about if a wealthy Arab merchant living in the world outside the court created a look-a-like a few years later? I sincerely doubt that anything untoward would have happened to him. So with a question like this, we need to consider not just "Jawa", but the specific part of Jawa, the specific time, the specific people involved, the specific ruler. All relevant aspects of the question need to be considered on a case by case basis. We cannot generalise.

4th March 2015, 10:58 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	I'm glad this discussion hasn't died just yet. I now understand better the situation and answer...........

6th March 2015, 10:44 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Well David, I did touch on one specific possibility, but to pursue this line of thought further, I believe we would probably need to address the matter on a situational basis, and to do that we would need to phase a question such as this:- were the members of the Cirebon Keraton hierarchic at all levels permitted to wear gold on their kerises on all occasions, during the period such & such to such & such? Then it would be necessary to research this very broad ranging question, if that were possible. Possibly we might find that they could wear gold under some circumstances, and not under others, so then we would need to pin down the specific times and specific circumstances. The way to approach this matter would be to state a rank, time, situation and court. Then try to find out something, and that something may or may not be available. Its just not an easy question David, and we cannot use a shotgun approach, we need to specify all the parameters and then hope we can find an answer, which could well be impossible.

6th March 2015, 02:44 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,230	I certainly agree with you on specificity Alan. However, what i think we are trying to establish in this case is the likelihood of a well dressed keris with old kinatah or other gold embellishments being a "Royal Keris". To get an idea of that likelihood i would say that any tales of specific proscriptions would at least get us started in this discussion. Of course, to get specific here, that first keris posted in the original question appears to be a Palembang keris from (perhaps) some time in the 19th century. So if we are going to answer José's question we need to be looking at the Palembang court from that time period. I have not personally found much reading material on Sumatran courts and don't know if finding the answer here is possible or not. As with many things to due with the keris, answers are not always available. That does not usually dissuade me, however, from asking the question. I also have a nice Palembang keris with a very similar gold pattern applied by what appears to be the same method. I agree with you that this (and mine) was most likely owned by a wealthy man such as a merchant rather than a a royal. So to couch my question more specifically, are you (or anyone) aware of any particular proscriptions on having gold on your keris in the Palembang court from this time period? You are, of course, correct that we would need to look closely at the specific court and time period for any keris we were to poise this question about and take them on a singular basis.

7th March 2015, 10:28 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	If we are going to talk about Palembang, I'm afraid I cannot make any relevant contribution, although Palembang does have a recognised connection to the Javanese courts it is an area that I have never paid much attention to. Further being away from home I do not access to any references that might of use, all I have is the net, and I'm afraid I have not a great deal of faith in what is available there. Most especially so as I am currently using computers that take minutes to reload a page. One short email can take 10 or fifteen minutes to take care of. But in any case, I think that perhaps the first thing that needs to be defined is exactly what is meant by the term "royal keris". I used to have an exceptionally fine example of this type of Palembang keris, gold selut, finely carved ivory hilt, rose gold (suasa) pendok, very high quality kinatah. Regrettably it has been stolen. May the scumbag who now has it never sleep again.