British or American Dirk

Will M · 17th February 2015, 10:34 PM

I'm not saying that this isn't a dirk but it may be a civilian dagger or letter opener. Letters were very important back in the day.
This category along with axes sellers tend to label them all as military edged weapons. How many axes have you seen that are just tools but listed as boarding axe etc.
Early magazines picture all sorts of knives, daggers, pistols for dogs in their adverts. I would look there if you have access to some.

M ELEY · 18th February 2015, 12:02 AM

I've had 5 naval dirks over the years. No expert, but I'm betting naval dirk, whether repaired, cut down hilt or what have you. I've had one like this one in the past, with a 3 1/2" hilt and 8" blade. Mine exactly conformed to one pictured in the article by Peter Tuite (author of multiple books on naval arms). What conforms to a naval pattern is the diamond-shaped blade, simple crosshilt, along with the 'tall' ivory/bone grip. As astutely noted by Kronckew, it was the midshipmen who carried the majority of these to signify that they were very young officers (10 and up) and not 'common' seamen. These dressy types were not fighters. That being said, if one had a copy of Gilkerson's Borders Away (yes, that tired old manual I mention so freely-

), one will see Horatio Nelson's fighting dirk was...ahem...rather small. Some of the American fighting dirks were smaller, albeit with chunkier, wide blades. I still have one dirk in my collection with a (scarcely) 4" hilt and long stiletto blade of 15". Anyway, my .2 cents...

http://www.vallejogallery.com/object...ull%20view.jpg

http://landandseacollection.com/id559.html

Hurray! The pics worked this time! Spectacular article on British naval items. I recommend the download for those that value it. Please note Plate 35 for a very similar example (one like I used to own).

http://www.google.com/url?url=http:/...9BOHhl-3xOcmHQ

Will M · 18th February 2015, 01:37 AM

The first link has good photos of dirks, the other links I cannot get the photos.
I see what you mean by it being a dirk. I thought the cross guard did not look substantial but then again it's not a large dirk.
I think the grip has been shortened as suggested.

Shakethetrees · 18th February 2015, 02:46 PM

I have owned about a dozen dirks over the years and have handled over a hundred or more at shows.

They are fascinating collecting category in and of themselves.

Midshipmen were very young, and, consequently, not fully grown men. (Small grips for small hands!) The proportions can be a little odd because of this and lead one to think of Spanish or Spanish colonial work sometime.

Also, as midshipmen, they did not have full responsibility of an officer.

The dirk was a part of their uniform and an indication of their rank. A commissioned officer would wear a larger more ornate and lethal dirk.

A lot were imported as parts (blades) and as finished goods from England and used by Americans. I believe most with etched blades were British made and used by either American or British Mids.

Now, civilians had a need for small sheath knives as well, for utility and protection. This was still the age, until about the 1830's, that gentlemen could wear small swords. These tended to get in the way, so smaller sidearms could be a less cumbersome alternative.

There are a lot of cutlery hilted knives out in the collecting realm that are just such a weapon. Later examples also had pinned slab grips.

French knives, or knives made by French trained cutlers, had much different proportions and were generally finished to a higher degree. The mirror polished blades, when still in original condition, stand out from the British and American works.

Where I live, in Louisiana, they occasionally turn up in estates.

But, remember, that cutlers were in business to sell knives, and anyone could walk into a shop and buy whatever suited his fancy and whatever he could afford.

As far as letter openers go, remember, that early 19th century envelopes did not have adhesive. They were sealed by a dollop of hot wax that was easily opened without slicing.

I will try to locate a few and post images in the next week or so.

18th February 2015, 12:02 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	I've had 5 naval dirks over the years. No expert, but I'm betting naval dirk, whether repaired, cut down hilt or what have you. I've had one like this one in the past, with a 3 1/2" hilt and 8" blade. Mine exactly conformed to one pictured in the article by Peter Tuite (author of multiple books on naval arms). What conforms to a naval pattern is the diamond-shaped blade, simple crosshilt, along with the 'tall' ivory/bone grip. As astutely noted by Kronckew, it was the midshipmen who carried the majority of these to signify that they were very young officers (10 and up) and not 'common' seamen. These dressy types were not fighters. That being said, if one had a copy of Gilkerson's Borders Away (yes, that tired old manual I mention so freely- ), one will see Horatio Nelson's fighting dirk was...ahem...rather small. Some of the American fighting dirks were smaller, albeit with chunkier, wide blades. I still have one dirk in my collection with a (scarcely) 4" hilt and long stiletto blade of 15". Anyway, my .2 cents... http://www.vallejogallery.com/object...ull%20view.jpg http://landandseacollection.com/id559.html Hurray! The pics worked this time! Spectacular article on British naval items. I recommend the download for those that value it. Please note Plate 35 for a very similar example (one like I used to own). http://www.google.com/url?url=http:/...9BOHhl-3xOcmHQ Last edited by M ELEY; 18th February 2015 at 12:46 AM.

17th February 2015, 10:34 PM	#1
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	I'm not saying that this isn't a dirk but it may be a civilian dagger or letter opener. Letters were very important back in the day. This category along with axes sellers tend to label them all as military edged weapons. How many axes have you seen that are just tools but listed as boarding axe etc. Early magazines picture all sorts of knives, daggers, pistols for dogs in their adverts. I would look there if you have access to some.

18th February 2015, 01:37 AM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	The first link has good photos of dirks, the other links I cannot get the photos. I see what you mean by it being a dirk. I thought the cross guard did not look substantial but then again it's not a large dirk. I think the grip has been shortened as suggested.

18th February 2015, 02:46 PM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I have owned about a dozen dirks over the years and have handled over a hundred or more at shows. They are fascinating collecting category in and of themselves. Midshipmen were very young, and, consequently, not fully grown men. (Small grips for small hands!) The proportions can be a little odd because of this and lead one to think of Spanish or Spanish colonial work sometime. Also, as midshipmen, they did not have full responsibility of an officer. The dirk was a part of their uniform and an indication of their rank. A commissioned officer would wear a larger more ornate and lethal dirk. A lot were imported as parts (blades) and as finished goods from England and used by Americans. I believe most with etched blades were British made and used by either American or British Mids. Now, civilians had a need for small sheath knives as well, for utility and protection. This was still the age, until about the 1830's, that gentlemen could wear small swords. These tended to get in the way, so smaller sidearms could be a less cumbersome alternative. There are a lot of cutlery hilted knives out in the collecting realm that are just such a weapon. Later examples also had pinned slab grips. French knives, or knives made by French trained cutlers, had much different proportions and were generally finished to a higher degree. The mirror polished blades, when still in original condition, stand out from the British and American works. Where I live, in Louisiana, they occasionally turn up in estates. But, remember, that cutlers were in business to sell knives, and anyone could walk into a shop and buy whatever suited his fancy and whatever he could afford. As far as letter openers go, remember, that early 19th century envelopes did not have adhesive. They were sealed by a dollop of hot wax that was easily opened without slicing. I will try to locate a few and post images in the next week or so.