Combination Halberd / Matchlock for comment

fernando · 5th September 2014, 06:33 PM

Fascinating piece. I hope you have it identified

.

M ELEY · 6th September 2014, 08:24 AM

Very interesting piece! I personally believe its either one of two things, based on it's primitivity and thinness of the iron (I'm not being snooty here with my 'primitive' comment. I think its a fantastic item!). I beleive what we have here is either a colonial-made halberd for the early colonies here in America. See Neumann's and Peterson (Colonial Weapons in America) for similar. Another possibility is that it is a blacksmith-made halberd style tomahawk ax sans hilt. There are very similar examples to this style seen in Hartzler and Knowle's volume Frontier tradeaxes and Indian Tomahawks, etc. Many tomahawk heads, especially pipe axes, were made from old musket barrels.

Check out this site for similar
http://furtradetomahawks.tripod.com/id9.html

M ELEY · 6th September 2014, 08:46 AM

The more I look at it, I'm convinced its an early trade tomahawk. The halberd types were early, mimicing the European weapons of the same name. The native Americans were captivated by the shapes of these weapons. Besides the halberd style, there were also 'spontoon head' tomahawks. I'm guessing the date on yours to be 17th to early 18th c. The French fur traders coming in through the Hudson River valley would have been the first to encounter and trade with the natives. You have an amazing piece!! Love to have it for my collection-

The site I referenced above is hard to pull up. If you do a general google search for 'halberd head tomahawk', you will see examples of this rare style of trade axe.

templarnight · 6th September 2014, 10:47 AM

Interestign thought regarding Amercian use. But would that explain the Matchlock Mechanism, which had largely died out by 1700.

fernando · 6th September 2014, 11:59 AM

Great approach, Mark ... and excelent food for thought

.
Say templarnight, why are you so sure that such appendix is a matchlock mechanism ? It is true you are able to observe the piece at naked eye; pictures posted are not so elucidative (for me

).
I will be ridiculous but, it looks like a twisted belt hanger ...

Also that orifice is rather misplaced for being a touch hole, am i right ?

,

Shakethetrees · 6th September 2014, 02:30 PM

I don't mean to be a sceptic, but the "vent" appears to be nothing more than a hole for fastening a haft into the socket, the "barrel" being the socket.

How can something be hafted and also be a firearm that shoots in the same direction as the person wielding it?

Is the shooter supposed to pull out the haft, grab the sharp end, light a match and place it in the "lighter", aim and shoot?

If it is truly a combination weapon, there would be a socket, as it is shown, and another tubular bit with the open end facing in the OPPOSITE direction.

I do not have an answer as to the original use of the "lighter" as you call it, but it could be something added post-manufacture, say thirty years later, and for some as yet unknown purpose.

Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that the added bit is a lighter. Where's the trigger? How do we keep a lit match FROM making contact with the vent, with disastrous results? We would need a spring and a long tail of some sort giving the operator the control of when to shoot. Also, as the "lighter" appears to be just passed through and peened to the opposite side of the head, this is not a good design for something that is supposed to swivel regularly without binding or working loose. Any blacksmith competent enough to make a blade of that sophistication would understand this little bit on engineering.

I think it's a halbard, European, and pretty early at that, but as far as making it a combination weapon or a tomahawk of a type used in the New World, I think we're barking up the wrong tree!

templarnight · 6th September 2014, 04:33 PM

Yes I take on board everything.

Im not willing this to be a combination weapon, just interested to find out what it is....

My thoughts concerning the opening at the end is....I have handled a lot of Halberds and Pole type weapons and I have never seen such a small Hole for the Haft to enter, this would not provide any strength at all when it was being swung around. So I really dont think it was ever meant to be Hafted.

Therefore when making this, wouldnt it have been easier to have made the Handle solid rather than going to the extra time consuming process of hollowing it out as far as the small Hole.

And now we come to the 'Added' part/Lighter. It looks like where it is attachedto the central part of the Axe, it went through to the other side. Possibly the 'Trigger' could have extended down and was worked that way.

Intriguing...

6th September 2014, 08:24 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Very interesting piece! I personally believe its either one of two things, based on it's primitivity and thinness of the iron (I'm not being snooty here with my 'primitive' comment. I think its a fantastic item!). I beleive what we have here is either a colonial-made halberd for the early colonies here in America. See Neumann's and Peterson (Colonial Weapons in America) for similar. Another possibility is that it is a blacksmith-made halberd style tomahawk ax sans hilt. There are very similar examples to this style seen in Hartzler and Knowle's volume Frontier tradeaxes and Indian Tomahawks, etc. Many tomahawk heads, especially pipe axes, were made from old musket barrels. Check out this site for similar http://furtradetomahawks.tripod.com/id9.html Last edited by M ELEY; 6th September 2014 at 08:55 AM.

6th September 2014, 11:59 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great approach, Mark ... and excelent food for thought . Say templarnight, why are you so sure that such appendix is a matchlock mechanism ? It is true you are able to observe the piece at naked eye; pictures posted are not so elucidative (for me ). I will be ridiculous but, it looks like a twisted belt hanger ... Also that orifice is rather misplaced for being a touch hole, am i right ? , Attached Images

5th September 2014, 06:33 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fascinating piece. I hope you have it identified .

6th September 2014, 08:46 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	The more I look at it, I'm convinced its an early trade tomahawk. The halberd types were early, mimicing the European weapons of the same name. The native Americans were captivated by the shapes of these weapons. Besides the halberd style, there were also 'spontoon head' tomahawks. I'm guessing the date on yours to be 17th to early 18th c. The French fur traders coming in through the Hudson River valley would have been the first to encounter and trade with the natives. You have an amazing piece!! Love to have it for my collection- The site I referenced above is hard to pull up. If you do a general google search for 'halberd head tomahawk', you will see examples of this rare style of trade axe.

6th September 2014, 10:47 AM	#4
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	Interestign thought regarding Amercian use. But would that explain the Matchlock Mechanism, which had largely died out by 1700.

6th September 2014, 02:30 PM	#6
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I don't mean to be a sceptic, but the "vent" appears to be nothing more than a hole for fastening a haft into the socket, the "barrel" being the socket. How can something be hafted and also be a firearm that shoots in the same direction as the person wielding it? Is the shooter supposed to pull out the haft, grab the sharp end, light a match and place it in the "lighter", aim and shoot? If it is truly a combination weapon, there would be a socket, as it is shown, and another tubular bit with the open end facing in the OPPOSITE direction. I do not have an answer as to the original use of the "lighter" as you call it, but it could be something added post-manufacture, say thirty years later, and for some as yet unknown purpose. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that the added bit is a lighter. Where's the trigger? How do we keep a lit match FROM making contact with the vent, with disastrous results? We would need a spring and a long tail of some sort giving the operator the control of when to shoot. Also, as the "lighter" appears to be just passed through and peened to the opposite side of the head, this is not a good design for something that is supposed to swivel regularly without binding or working loose. Any blacksmith competent enough to make a blade of that sophistication would understand this little bit on engineering. I think it's a halbard, European, and pretty early at that, but as far as making it a combination weapon or a tomahawk of a type used in the New World, I think we're barking up the wrong tree!

6th September 2014, 04:33 PM	#7
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	Yes I take on board everything. Im not willing this to be a combination weapon, just interested to find out what it is.... My thoughts concerning the opening at the end is....I have handled a lot of Halberds and Pole type weapons and I have never seen such a small Hole for the Haft to enter, this would not provide any strength at all when it was being swung around. So I really dont think it was ever meant to be Hafted. Therefore when making this, wouldnt it have been easier to have made the Handle solid rather than going to the extra time consuming process of hollowing it out as far as the small Hole. And now we come to the 'Added' part/Lighter. It looks like where it is attachedto the central part of the Axe, it went through to the other side. Possibly the 'Trigger' could have extended down and was worked that way. Intriguing...