New yataghan

ariel · 29th November 2005, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

ariel, thank you very much for the information.i missed your first post i think, perhaps you sent it while i was busy with mine. i see it just now. right, the 1st and 12nd months are confusing. I have a dagger which is dated 1700-01 instead of 1699-1700 . I would like very much to be able to say I have something from the 17th century

.

How very interesting: Japanese swords of 17th century (Shinto) are considered relatively new vs. really old stuff (Koto, before 1600).
I have a Kindjal dated 1181 H (about 1767 Gregorian) and it is the oldest Kindjal I've ever seen or heard about.
Why don't we, indeed, have older "Islamic" swords? What happened to them? Why such a difference vs. Japanese?

Rivkin · 29th November 2005, 06:43 AM

I think the preservation traditions of japanese swords+ the fact that there were no wars in Edo periods plaid an important role. Also, late Koto is not that rare because of mass production of that era... In the same time Muromachi and Kamakura are far more expensive.

Concerning ancient kindjals and caucasian swords... I also thought XVIII century to be as far as you can go until I visited couple of truly high-standing noblemen. XV-XVI century things in Georgia are really not that unusual, only the owners never sell and never shows these swords to anyone.

From what they told me, the collection of Tbilisi State Historical Museum should be outstanding... I definitely would like to make some contacts with people from there, I think they have the museum has a webpage or something.

Yannis · 29th November 2005, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

From what they told me, the collection of Tbilisi State Historical Museum should be outstanding... I definitely would like to make some contacts with people from there, I think they have the museum has a webpage or something.

They dont have a website but here it is "something" you may have not seen

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Tbilisi

ariel · 30th November 2005, 02:19 AM

We have discussed it already. Stunning collection but in a sadly bad shape.
Rivkin, have you really seen Caucasian weapons of 15-16th century? I am awed!
How do they look? Did the old kindjals vary much from the more contemporary ones? Can you tell us more? Any pictures? Nothing on the subject in Astvatsaruryan's book.
BTW, the Atlant Publishing House in Moscow says there are plans to re-issue her books on Caucasian and Turkish weapons in English! That will be a great day for all collectors!!

erlikhan · 29th November 2005, 07:13 AM

Answer can be based on simple assumptions (I guess). Japanese kept their swords as an ancestral memory through generations, in fact they could do it. They didnt make continuous wars with other nations, didnt invade other countries and get invaded by others hundreds of times till the end of sword era, and their local wars didnt have cannon explosions helping swords to return safely from the wars . Swords of Islamic countries suffered these facts at their maximum ,were used to their full capacity,got worn and destroyed. In Turkey, most of any kind of edged weapons found were picked to plunder or destroy by invaders, or used by militia to defend their homeland in neverending invasions of early 20th c till 1922. over the country,even picked by the regular troops from civilians when there is no regular weapon around to use. In 18th and 19th c. periodically, when an economical crisis occured, State was ordering the return of silver items to the treasury, to melt them and mint coins. This was causing gorgeous weapons loose their mountings and become simple pieces of iron, very desirable to get rid of. Plus as they were part of European history too, they got popular earlier than Japanese swords , causing many to go into museum and private collections, and stay out of the market forever.

29th November 2005, 07:13 AM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Answer can be based on simple assumptions (I guess). Japanese kept their swords as an ancestral memory through generations, in fact they could do it. They didnt make continuous wars with other nations, didnt invade other countries and get invaded by others hundreds of times till the end of sword era, and their local wars didnt have cannon explosions helping swords to return safely from the wars . Swords of Islamic countries suffered these facts at their maximum ,were used to their full capacity,got worn and destroyed. In Turkey, most of any kind of edged weapons found were picked to plunder or destroy by invaders, or used by militia to defend their homeland in neverending invasions of early 20th c till 1922. over the country,even picked by the regular troops from civilians when there is no regular weapon around to use. In 18th and 19th c. periodically, when an economical crisis occured, State was ordering the return of silver items to the treasury, to melt them and mint coins. This was causing gorgeous weapons loose their mountings and become simple pieces of iron, very desirable to get rid of. Plus as they were part of European history too, they got popular earlier than Japanese swords , causing many to go into museum and private collections, and stay out of the market forever. Last edited by erlikhan; 29th November 2005 at 09:17 AM.

29th November 2005, 06:43 AM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I think the preservation traditions of japanese swords+ the fact that there were no wars in Edo periods plaid an important role. Also, late Koto is not that rare because of mass production of that era... In the same time Muromachi and Kamakura are far more expensive. Concerning ancient kindjals and caucasian swords... I also thought XVIII century to be as far as you can go until I visited couple of truly high-standing noblemen. XV-XVI century things in Georgia are really not that unusual, only the owners never sell and never shows these swords to anyone. From what they told me, the collection of Tbilisi State Historical Museum should be outstanding... I definitely would like to make some contacts with people from there, I think they have the museum has a webpage or something.

30th November 2005, 02:19 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	We have discussed it already. Stunning collection but in a sadly bad shape. Rivkin, have you really seen Caucasian weapons of 15-16th century? I am awed! How do they look? Did the old kindjals vary much from the more contemporary ones? Can you tell us more? Any pictures? Nothing on the subject in Astvatsaruryan's book. BTW, the Atlant Publishing House in Moscow says there are plans to re-issue her books on Caucasian and Turkish weapons in English! That will be a great day for all collectors!!