Quality of edged weapons (101)?

[A. G. Maisey]

Everything that STT and Oliver have said is relevant to your question, however, I am unable to be as specific either of these two gentlemen.

Perhaps the very first question to answer is exactly what is meant by "quality" in any particular field.

Are you going to judge quality in accordance with the parameters used by collectors and other authorities who are outside the relevant culture/society, or are you going to judge quality in accordance with the standards used within the culture/society ?

If within the relevant culture/society, will you apply the standards of the people within that society who are recognised arbiters, or will you apply the standards of the general mass?

Then there is the problem of time:- something that is accepted as an object of high quality today, may not have been highly regarded at the time it was produced, and the opposite can also be the case.

Since you are focussed on modern interpretations of traditional weapons, perhaps you need to understand how the people within the relevant society/culture see the weapon in question in today's terms. Has the weapon developed into an art work, has the form developed into something a little different from what it used to be, or are the modern makers attempting to copy and reproduce styles from the past?

Perhaps it may be relevant to use the standards of modern custom cutlers, where you would apply the three "F's" :- fit, finish, functionality.

But if the weapon has developed into an art work, then functionality no longer applies.

I apologise for raising more questions than I have answered, but I do believe that you first need to clarify your collecting objectives, and perhaps the first question you must clarify for yourself is exactly what standards you intend to apply:- the standards within the culture /society, or the standards of collectors who are outside the culture/society.

In my own field of specialisation there can often be a very wide gap between one of the several standards that can apply in Javanese or Balinese society, and the standards that apply amongst collectors outside those societies. All these standards can be argued to be valid, but we need to be clear in our own minds about which standard it is that we apply for our own collecting.

[VANDOO]

A DEEP AND COMPLICATED QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL VARY WITH EACH INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR, I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS SO FAR. EXPERIENCE AND PERSONNEL TASTES WILL DETERMINE THE WAY WE COLLECT, SO EACH COLLECTOR WILL SET HIS OWN PARAMETERS FOR COLLECTING.
IF FOR RESALE NOW OR LATER THE PROFIT IS MOST IMPORTANT SO WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS, AUTHENTICITY AND DEMAND MUST BE OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE.
SOME OF US COLLECT ITEMS THAT ARE ATTRACTIVE OR ESPECIALLY INTERESTING TO US PERSONALLY REGARDLESS OF RESALE , PROFIT OR WORKMANSHIP BUT TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE. RESALE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN BY US AS WHEN WE PASS THEM ON IT IS BEST TO BREAK EVEN OR GET SOME PROFIT. THE COST, AUTHENTICITY AND ATTRACTIVENESS TO US PERSONALLY ARE OUR MAIN MOTIVATION.
SOME CHOOSE TO SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD AND ARE ABLE TO AVOID BUYING IN OTHER FIELDS. THEY MAY CHOOSE TO ONLY COLLECT A FEW OF THE VERY BEST QUALITY OR A RANGE OF QUALITY FROM LOW GRADE COMMON EXAMPLES TO THOSE ONLY FOR ROYALTY.

OFTEN THE MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY'S PRODUCE WHAT WE CONSIDER HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS. THEIR STEEL, GOLD, SILVER, GEMS AND INLAYS ARE TECHNICALLY SUPERIOR. BUT IN SOME SOCIETY'S THE MORE CRUDE TECHNIQUES ARE THE TRUE ONES AND WHAT WE SEEK SO THE PRIMITIVE CRAFT IS AUTHENTIC. SO COLLECTING IN THESE FIELDS REQUIRES WE LOOK FOR THE PROPER CRUDE TECHNIQUES, PATINA AND WEAR TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MODERN AND OLD. STONE TOOLS OR STEEL TOOLS OFTEN MAKES THE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY. THE PROPER MATERIALS AND DESIGNS USED ALSO PLAYS ITS PART.
WHEN DEALING WITH ITEMS MADE ONE AT A TIME BY HAND BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS AND TRIBES THAT CHANGE OVER TIME YIELDS A FIELD WHERE NO TWO ITEMS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THE FACTORY MADE ITEMS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALL MOSTLY ALIKE.
COLLECTING GOOD CONTEMPORARY MADE ITEMS MADE BY THE SOCIETY TODAY IS ANOTHER FIELD TO COLLECT IN AND HELPS SUPPORT AND PRESERVE THE NATIVE ART EVEN IF THEY ARE OFTEN CONSIDERED AS ONLY TOURIST ITEMS TODAY 100 YEARS FROM NOW WHO KNOWS?.
WE COLLECTORS ARE LIKE THE THINGS WE COLLECT, ARE ALL ONE OF A KIND AND EACH OF US FOLLOWS OUR OWN PATH AND LEARNS WHAT WE CAN FROM THE FORUM AND ELSEWHERE IN OUR OWN WAY. THE MAIN THING IS TO ENJOY, LEARN AND HAVE FUN.

[spiral]

in some way unused modern arms are more difficult to judge.

In Nepal 9 or 10 years ago old army kukri were sold for 4 times the price of a modern shiny lookalike piece, not for collector value just if it had lasted 80 or 100 years in a village you knew it was good! the locals would trust in it, The said new ones can look amazing then break , obviously due to poor steel tempering near the tang, poor steel, stress risers on poorly ground tangs etc.

If a knife or sword is to be used for real it should be tested, new or old.

The blade should be smacked at maximum impact into a thick oak {or equivalent.} plank {not the log end.} 3 or 4 times from edge, both sides & spine. {Safety gear may be needed. }

If its ok, not bent broken or grip become loose then its probably ok to use if your life depends on it.

There are further old ww2 Gurkha tests to fine tune stuff for higher finesse, but the basic smash it & see from all angles lets you know whether it a user or not.

spiral

[ariel]

Originally Posted by spiral

The blade should be smacked at maximum impact into a thick oak {or equivalent.} plank {not the log end.} 3 or 4 times from edge, both sides & spine. {Safety gear may be needed. }

spiral

A word of caution: please do not do it with even presumably valuable blades:-)

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ariel

A word of caution: please do not do it with even presumably valuable blades:-)

I agree in principal Ariel, & the poster was talking about new pieces... but I still say if you are going to use one old or new, it needs testing!

Ive known 3 blokes carry collectable & sought after kukri as side arms in at least 3 nationality's forces in the last 15 years.

They all collected kukri, had lots of them {old & new.} & took the one they trusted most into combat zones. {2 were special ops types {some US Navy Intelligence unit, Brit.SAS, & a French fighter pilot.} because they were better than the modern made ones. There life, there collections, there choice.

It is a shame if a collectable gets destroyed, I agree, but If I really needed to use one as if my life depended on it {Not that Ill get a call up.}, it would be a good one as well.

If your life may depend on it , you've got to choose the best I think...

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used.

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used.

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

That's the problem no one considers when pressing old blades into service, especially ones where the exact construction details are presumed to be a certain way.

No one would think about getting an X-ray first.

The saddest tale of woe I have ever heard is that a descendant of Jim Bowie took one of the earliest Bowie knives, possibly the first one ever, on a hunting trip.

Long story short, the pirogue tipped over and dumped them and the contents into the water. The knife was lost! Family history, arms history, American history, and a knife that eventually would have great intrinsic value was irretrievably lost.

I've always thought it best to get the best modern equipment available and put faith in it when it's going into a situation where it could be ruined or, worse yet, taken and enjoyed by an "enemy combatant"!

Think about the movie, Pulp Fiction, where an Air Force captain played by Christopher Walken returns a watch with three generations of combat service to the young son of his POW cellmate!

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A DEEP AND COMPLICATED QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL VARY WITH EACH INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR, I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS SO FAR. EXPERIENCE AND PERSONNEL TASTES WILL DETERMINE THE WAY WE COLLECT, SO EACH COLLECTOR WILL SET HIS OWN PARAMETERS FOR COLLECTING.
IF FOR RESALE NOW OR LATER THE PROFIT IS MOST IMPORTANT SO WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS, AUTHENTICITY AND DEMAND MUST BE OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE.
SOME OF US COLLECT ITEMS THAT ARE ATTRACTIVE OR ESPECIALLY INTERESTING TO US PERSONALLY REGARDLESS OF RESALE , PROFIT OR WORKMANSHIP BUT TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE. RESALE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN BY US AS WHEN WE PASS THEM ON IT IS BEST TO BREAK EVEN OR GET SOME PROFIT. THE COST, AUTHENTICITY AND ATTRACTIVENESS TO US PERSONALLY ARE OUR MAIN MOTIVATION.
SOME CHOOSE TO SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD AND ARE ABLE TO AVOID BUYING IN OTHER FIELDS. THEY MAY CHOOSE TO ONLY COLLECT A FEW OF THE VERY BEST QUALITY OR A RANGE OF QUALITY FROM LOW GRADE COMMON EXAMPLES TO THOSE ONLY FOR ROYALTY.

OFTEN THE MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY'S PRODUCE WHAT WE CONSIDER HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS. THEIR STEEL, GOLD, SILVER, GEMS AND INLAYS ARE TECHNICALLY SUPERIOR. BUT IN SOME SOCIETY'S THE MORE CRUDE TECHNIQUES ARE THE TRUE ONES AND WHAT WE SEEK SO THE PRIMITIVE CRAFT IS AUTHENTIC. SO COLLECTING IN THESE FIELDS REQUIRES WE LOOK FOR THE PROPER CRUDE TECHNIQUES, PATINA AND WEAR TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MODERN AND OLD. STONE TOOLS OR STEEL TOOLS OFTEN MAKES THE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY. THE PROPER MATERIALS AND DESIGNS USED ALSO PLAYS ITS PART.
WHEN DEALING WITH ITEMS MADE ONE AT A TIME BY HAND BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS AND TRIBES THAT CHANGE OVER TIME YIELDS A FIELD WHERE NO TWO ITEMS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THE FACTORY MADE ITEMS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALL MOSTLY ALIKE.
COLLECTING GOOD CONTEMPORARY MADE ITEMS MADE BY THE SOCIETY TODAY IS ANOTHER FIELD TO COLLECT IN AND HELPS SUPPORT AND PRESERVE THE NATIVE ART EVEN IF THEY ARE OFTEN CONSIDERED AS ONLY TOURIST ITEMS TODAY 100 YEARS FROM NOW WHO KNOWS?.
WE COLLECTORS ARE LIKE THE THINGS WE COLLECT, ARE ALL ONE OF A KIND AND EACH OF US FOLLOWS OUR OWN PATH AND LEARNS WHAT WE CAN FROM THE FORUM AND ELSEWHERE IN OUR OWN WAY. THE MAIN THING IS TO ENJOY, LEARN AND HAVE FUN.

Thanks a lot for the great response, Vandoo! Please see my response to AGM above.

[spiral]

This axe was the standard felling pattern in the UK Alan, nothing customised or special about it, It does what I ask of it though, better than modern axes sold for splitting.

In the UK we don't come across many axes that weight 7lb but are only a quarter inch thick 2 inches back from the edge. Here general purpose axes are thicker than that, {still concave of course.}Strangely in England being a 7lb Elwell it value is similar to your old bayonet! There sought after here! By both collectors & users!

I must admit the old American axes you mention & the custom Ozzie ones Ive never seen in the UK. Ill keep my eyes open for them! I guess Id have to search them out though... & any felling I do nowadays I only do with a chainsaw, so that's probably not much use to me, they look nice though & the custom handle looks usefull.

So when re.handled, Ill carry on using my 118 year old 7lb English pattern generic felling axe, {for splitting!}

Yes it does get tricky Driftwood, I have a couple of 200 year old plus rather exotic kukri that I haven't tested, but there of the reach out & touch someone with the sharpness rather than chopping weapons. But I don't intend to use them, I have others I can use.

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I couldn't agree more Spiral:- if your old Elwell does what you want it to do, and does it well, of course you should continue to use it.

This has been exactly what we've been talking about. In fact, I'd guess that the old Elwell probably splits blocks of firewood better than a modern so-called "block-splitter". I've used these things and in my book they're bloody atrocious. I'd sooner use a hammer and wedge than a modern block splitter.

I believe that your old Elwell is as it came from the factory, and that any use it has had during its life was as a GP axe. If it had been used as a felling axe any self-respecting professional using it for this would have ground and sharpened it for this purpose. This axe has never been ground and sharpened as a felling axe for use on softwoods, so anybody trying to use it day in and day out for that job would have had a very hard row to hoe.


I believe without question that this design was very popular as a felling axe design in England, but design is one thing, grind is another. The factory produces the design, the user does the grind.

The same thing applies with the three axes I posted a pic of:- the Plumb came from the factory with GP grind, but the owner prior to my uncle re-ground it for ease of use on green eucalypt timber. The Keesteel came from the factory with a GP grind, and it has never been reground, if it were to be reground it would come up as a very fine axe.The Kelly came from the factory with a GP design and GP grind, this axe can never be anything else but a GP axe.

Those custom makers of axes, that I put the links in for, produce exceptionally fine axes, and they offer a number of grinds straight from the factory that will suit the timber that the axe is to be used on, this saves the buyer a lot of time.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I believe that your old Elwell is as it came from the factory, and that any use it has had during its life was as a GP axe. If it had been used as a felling axe any self-respecting professional using it for this would have ground and sharpened it for this purpose. This axe has never been ground and sharpened as a felling axe for use on softwoods, so anybody trying to use it day in and day out for that job would have had a very hard row to hoe.
.

Yes it seemed virtually unused when I found it a couple of decades ago.

Ive never ground it.

So your deduction is probably correct!

Spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Driftwould, it appears that you understood the message I was attempting to convey, this being so I'd guess that you have probably more than a little bit study in front of you. This knowledge game tends to become easier if one can narrow focus.

In respect of fit and finish.

Perhaps the best way to understand these two things, as they apply to weaponry, is to look at a lot of examples of modern custom knifemakers work.

The best of these blokes are absolute fanatics on fit and finish.

I would not expect to see the same standard, or even anything close, when it comes to ethnic weaponry, but having seen the best that can be done you then have a yardstick to use against whatever else you might be looking at.

I feel that the two related concepts of fit and finish apply to probably most handmade objects, but within any field the interpretation will be different, for example fit and finish certainly apply to a bespoke suit, but the expert on tailoring excellence is not really equipped to judge a bespoke English longbow, and of course the opposite also applies.

So this gets back to comments that others have made, and that boil down to really only one thing:- experience. I don't know of any short cuts, but if you spend your available learning time by directing it towards the areas of greatest return you might be able to reduce the total time spent.

Fit and finish on sharp pointy things? Visit some custom knife shows.

[driftwould]

Well, since we're deep into this, here are some pictures of my latest acquisitions from Uzbekistan. Any thoughts on the quality, and how close or far from my goal I am? Unfortunately, some of them only had some pretty horrible sheathes (plastic?!) available, but what else could I do?

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Everything that STT and Oliver have said is relevant to your question, however, I am unable to be as specific either of these two gentlemen.

Perhaps the very first question to answer is exactly what is meant by "quality" in any particular field.

Are you going to judge quality in accordance with the parameters used by collectors and other authorities who are outside the relevant culture/society, or are you going to judge quality in accordance with the standards used within the culture/society ?

If within the relevant culture/society, will you apply the standards of the people within that society who are recognized arbiters, or will you apply the standards of the general mass?

Then there is the problem of time:- something that is accepted as an object of high quality today, may not have been highly regarded at the time it was produced, and the opposite can also be the case.

Since you are focused on modern interpretations of traditional weapons, perhaps you need to understand how the people within the relevant society/culture see the weapon in question in today's terms. Has the weapon developed into an art work, has the form developed into something a little different from what it used to be, or are the modern makers attempting to copy and reproduce styles from the past?

Perhaps it may be relevant to use the standards of modern custom cutlers, where you would apply the three "F's" :- fit, finish, functionality.

But if the weapon has developed into an art work, then functionality no longer applies.

I apologise for raising more questions than I have answered, but I do believe that you first need to clarify your collecting objectives, and perhaps the first question you must clarify for yourself is exactly what standards you intend to apply:- the standards within the culture /society, or the standards of collectors who are outside the culture/society.

In my own field of specialisation there can often be a very wide gap between one of the several standards that can apply in Javanese or Balinese society, and the standards that apply amongst collectors outside those societies. All these standards can be argued to be valid, but we need to be clear in our own minds about which standard it is that we apply for our own collecting.

It's funny that you should say just that, in just that way, just when you did- I just happen to have had a conversation about just that with a friend just the other day! ;^) Here's a distillation of what came out of it:

I asked my friend how he defines quality. This very farm-based analogy was his response: “I can give you a cow pie and tell you its quality. If you want to hang it on a wall, you'll tell me to go to ****. If you want to fertilize your garden you'll want a bag of the stuff. I would base quality on traditional made thing with A. Is it traditional. B. How well it works for intended purpose.” He added, “quality is based on what its intent is. If it’s a pretty object to be hung on a wall the quality is the aesthetic look. If its to be used its the resilience of the blade and how the handle FEELS (not looks).” Not a bad beginning, I think. That in mind, here’s what else I told him I’m looking for:

FUNCTIONALITY:
• I could, at least in theory, take the piece and, well, use it! There is a caveat though: There are plenty of examples of knives that are used in traditional cultures not for regular cutting, but for ceremonial or religious or superstitious purposes- for example as a talisman against evil or a sign of initiation. These pieces would be just fine because of their traditional value, which to me trumps their value as and edged cutting tool. After all, it’s their intended, traditional function. That goes back to my friend’s response. It also brings me to…

CULTURE, TRADITION AND HISTORY OF BOTH THE STYLE AND THE SPECIFIC PIECE IN QUESTION
• Pieces should:
o be part of, and convey, the culture they came out of, and its history.
o be made in the traditional style of a local culture (whether that be the old style or its LEGITIMATE modern continuation- see below).
• The story/history of the piece- my part of the story, the makers’ and sellers’ parts in it, and its place in the native culture and history- are key to a piece’s intrinsic value to me. Does this tradition stretch back to much earlier times? All the better! That brings me to…

PERSONAL CONNECTION:
• I place an extremely high value on going there in person to get them from the maker, at least for modern pieces. The harder it is to get to a place, and the more difficult the process, the more value I place on the piece.
o (That brings me to this problem: you need to know what the traditional, good ones are in order to pick something you can truly be proud to have gone there and gotten yourself. Hence, my original post.)
o (As a side note and good example, I have a well worn, dull, rusty old spear from the Philippines with no embellishment which I highly value. Why? Because I went there, connected with locals, went on a mini-expedition into the mountainous, rural and undeveloped heart of a backwards island on the back of a local friend’s friend’s motorcycle over hours worth of really rough two track snaking through jungle, hunted for old swords and found this by accident in the process. I have a video of my guide/motorcycle driver/interpreter/now friend interpreting from the local dialect as the previous owner stood in front of his hut and explained how it had been used in WWII against the Japanese, among other things. It was clearly not a sales pitch! The personal connection with the piece, and the man who was one in a line of owners stretching back into history, makes this a piece very close to my heart, and one of my most prized posessions.)

BEAUTY (AND UNIQUENESS)
• Pieces should:
o be beautiful pieces of art, and by that I mean refined and elegant, traditionally cultural pieces, NOT gaudy or touristy things. At the very least, it should be a good example of the traditional craftsmanship and artistry of the culture. I prize this highly!
o preferably stand out from other pieces.
o Not be mass produced or low quality pieces of workmanship (again leading back to my original post). I prize the sweat, muscle, skill and passion a truly skilled artisan has poured into a hand-made piece.

MONETARY ISSUES
• I’m not looking at these in terms of resale value. I'd rather keep them a whole lifetime, and then see them become heirlooms or something. That said, the good ones tend to be the expensive ones, and I figure I'll only be there once (or at least, once in this stage of my own story), and I can afford the money because 10 years from now I'll miss the knife more than the money.

QUALITY OVER QUANTITY:
• I will ALWAYS buy one good one over two so-so’s.

In other words, if you think like an anthropologist, art lover and a historian, and throw in a little Indian Jones, you’ll be close to understanding what I’m looking for! ;^)

As for your point about its value at the time of production vs. now, I suppose I’d make a personal call on that on a case by case basis- though I’d love more discussion on this! Your point about how people see it in today’s terms is also a good one. I should mention that, while I’ve mostly only had the opportunity to collect modern interpretations of traditional styles to date, it’s by no means my only focus! Historical pieces would be great, as would swords and not just the (mostly) daggers I’ve collected so far.

One last thing, about what you said about fit, finish and functionality, I think I’ve said plenty about my take on functionality, but could you say more about fit and finish?

Thanks again for the great response!