Why and What We Collect--A Tale of Two Barung

Ian · 22nd August 2014, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Ian,

I wouldn't date the entire sword based solely on the scabbard. It could be a working life replacement. I believe, as Vandoo and Sajen do, that the barong itself is older than WW2.

Rick:

You are absolutely correct in noting that the barung, taken by itself, could possibly date from 1920-1930. This is the period to which Cato assigns the emergence of the kakatua style on Item 2. That style of kakatua is still being made. And yes, it is possible that the tagub could be a replacement. If so, it appears to be an old replacement.

That said, I prefer to deal with the data at hand. I have no reason to believe that the tagub has been replaced; the amount of wear on the scabbard seems commensurate with the hilt, and I think both are likely original to the blade. When a piece has seen some heavy action, as this one may well have, I don't think appearances alone are helpful in judging age. Rather, I prefer to look at the available evidence, as outlined in the original post of this thread.

Having made my case for what I think these two barung represent, I won't elaborate any further. Feel free to disagree. But please tell me also your collecting philosophy.

Ian.

Rick · 23rd August 2014, 12:53 AM

I'd rather have one really good example of something than a few or several of lesser workmanship or condition .

Sometimes it works out .

RSWORD · 23rd August 2014, 01:38 AM

Hi Ian,

Personally I would date the barong slightly earlier but hey we are only talking 10-20 years and in the case of the piece in question a rather insignificant difference. I am digressing from the original question and am happy to provide my own point of view on my collecting philosophy.

For me, it has been a journey that seems ever evolving. I was quite young when I first started and I simply thought they were cool. Didn't really know anything about those first pieces but they were cool. I have always been a collector and treasure hunter. It started with comics and baseball cards and excursions into my grandmothers attic. So I think some of that was carrying over into my young adult years. So after starting out with 4-5 pieces that I knew absolutely nothing about I ran across a book on the subject. Lo and behold one of my early swords was in the book. How cool was that! That sparked a desire to learn more so over the next decade or so I started going to shows, getting more books, meeting more collectors and my knowledge and more importantly my appreciation for these objects began to grow. Herein lies the trap. The more I learn the more I appreciate. The more I appreciate the more fun the treasure hunt. The occasional great buy feeds the treasure hunt to do it again. So again, I am in a damn perpetual cycle of hunting, acquiring and appreciating these objects. Through research on these items I have learned more about history and other cultures than I ever did in school. So that speaks a bit about how I got here. As far as a collecting philosophy I don't have one. I tend to gravitate towards certain regions or style of weapons so I have never been able to narrow the focus to one thing. If something catches my eye and I have the means at that time to get it then that is what I do. My philosophy is to fully learn and appreciate these ethnographic objects for their historical significance, their cultural significance, their artistic significance and finally their quality of craftsmanship. Doing that feeds that inner collector child except instead of Fantastic Four, Thor, Avengers and the Justice League it's Tibetan Ke Tri, Ottoman shamshir, Moro Kalis and Indian Tulwar. I am interested in seeing where this evolves for me in 20 years. I have a feeling the vicious cycle will continue!

Gavin Nugent · 23rd August 2014, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I'd rather have one really good example of something than a few or several of lesser workmanship or condition .

Sometimes it works out .

I wouldn't have bought either item for these reasons...patience ;-)

Or at least, complete, without loss or major flaws and aspects that can be restored...

Rick · 23rd August 2014, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

I wouldn't have bought either item for these reasons...patience ;-)

Or at least, complete, without loss or major flaws and aspects that can be restored...

Yeh, and finding stuff like that on the ground is getting scarcer and harder .

A. G. Maisey · 24th August 2014, 09:40 AM

Although my life-long passion has been the keris, I do collect other things as well, other weaponry of course, but also paper weights, carvings in various mediums, Australian rural paintings, pocket knives, cameras, South East Asian ethnographica, precious and semi precious stones, watches, books, bicycles and so on and so on and so on.

When it comes right down to it, I collect things that I like, I'm the person who has to live with what I buy, and I do not need to satisfy anybody but myself.

For instance, my two favourite paper weight types are at opposite ends of the spectrum:- end-of-day weights, and flower weights, especially flower weights with filigree work. I'll buy any other weights that might appeal to me on any particular day also. I understand the quality indicators in paper weights, and I understand the hierarchy of the various makers, but these things don't influence me when I buy, I buy what I like. I do not buy weights for investment, nor with any intention to resell, I buy because I like looking at them and handling them.

Now, if I consider the things that influence me to buy keris, in fact, my way of buying is not much different to my way of buying paper weights:- I buy those keris that I like. It wasn't always thus, when I began to collect keris I bought every keris I found and that I could afford to buy. By age 30 I finished up with one hell of a lot of keris that I gradually decreased in number over the next 10 or 12 years. But I did learn a lot from that early collection. For about the last 30 or so years my keris collecting has been much more selective, but it is still governed by the principle of buying what I like.

So, my collecting habits are very subjective. I do not collect keris based on rarity, nor on quality, nor on artistic merit, nor on any other consistent, logically defensible factor.

However, it would probably be fair to say that my lengthy involvement with keris collecting does seem to dictate that the keris that I like are almost invariably quite desirable in one way or another, even if it is sometimes necessary to point out to a fellow collector why I find a particular piece desirable.

Desirability in anything is not always obvious, nor is it governed by any single consistent factor.

Gavin Nugent · 25th August 2014, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So, my collecting habits are very subjective. I do not collect keris based on rarity, nor on quality, nor on artistic merit, nor on any other consistent, logically defensible factor.

I am curios, as you are a serious and experienced collector; Where does condition, completeness, faults and flaws sit with you in the wide scope of your collections? I can appreciate a Keris blade may be acquired without further dress but do you like to buy bikes with missing wheels or paperweights with breaks and flaws?

A. G. Maisey · 25th August 2014, 11:58 PM

As I have said, for me, it is subjective.

All the things I collect I have very long experience with. Because of this there are various factors that can effect my decision to buy.

When I was much less experienced with keris I used to focus on just the fact that it was a keris, this was when I was a kid of 12 or 14 years old, then later, in my twenties and thirties I was looking for the rare and unusual; after I gained knowledge of how quality is assessed in a keris I focussed on quality, and sought keris of the very best quality I could afford.

All these stages in my collecting of keris have added to the way I now look at a keris, so each appraisal of a keris becomes subjective, although that subjectivity is guided, often intuitively guided, by very long objective experience.

Will I buy a very badly damaged keris that may appear to be no more than junk?

Yes. Provided it has a feature that makes it worthy of study, or it is worth putting time into to restore. My core collection contains not only keris with six figure values, but also keris that even very experienced internationally known collectors have needed guidance before they were able to understand the value of the piece. In my opinion this type of in depth study is what is required to gain true knowledge.

Will I buy a paperweight with chips or flaws?

Yes.

For similar reasons that apply to my keris collecting:- to gain knowledge.

I do have some very good weights, but the knowledge that has permitted me to acquire those weights has come from the study of weights that are less perfect.

Bicycles?

I started to race when I was 16 and I finally gave it away for good when I was 42.

I still ride a bike. Mostly a mountain bike on bush tracks, but I have a total of 10 or 12 bikes 3 or 4 of which get used constantly --- mountain bike, fixie, road bike. I need to keep the number down to about ten because I don't have the space to keep any more, so I am always selling one or buying one.

Some of the nicest bikes I've owned have come from the local rubbish tip. I bought one a couple of weeks ago that I sold yesterday to my exercise physiologist.

This bike is a 1960's Peugeot, Nervex Professional lugs, all second string competition components from the 1960's, when I bought it I paid $10. It looked like pure crap, filthy, chain rusted solid, lousy paint job, wheels out of true. A real mess. It took me a couple of days and about $60 to turn it into a very classy fixie. It’s a 23" square frame, which is far too big for me, otherwise I would have kept it, instead of passing it on to somebody else.

Would I buy a bike with missing wheels?

Oh yes, most definitely. I'd buy a bike with missing or broken anything, provided it was good bike and I could fix it.

I enjoy the process of fixing.

As I said in my previous post:-

"Desirability in anything is not always obvious, nor is it governed by any single consistent factor."

23rd August 2014, 12:53 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I'd rather have one really good example of something than a few or several of lesser workmanship or condition . Sometimes it works out .

23rd August 2014, 01:38 AM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Hi Ian, Personally I would date the barong slightly earlier but hey we are only talking 10-20 years and in the case of the piece in question a rather insignificant difference. I am digressing from the original question and am happy to provide my own point of view on my collecting philosophy. For me, it has been a journey that seems ever evolving. I was quite young when I first started and I simply thought they were cool. Didn't really know anything about those first pieces but they were cool. I have always been a collector and treasure hunter. It started with comics and baseball cards and excursions into my grandmothers attic. So I think some of that was carrying over into my young adult years. So after starting out with 4-5 pieces that I knew absolutely nothing about I ran across a book on the subject. Lo and behold one of my early swords was in the book. How cool was that! That sparked a desire to learn more so over the next decade or so I started going to shows, getting more books, meeting more collectors and my knowledge and more importantly my appreciation for these objects began to grow. Herein lies the trap. The more I learn the more I appreciate. The more I appreciate the more fun the treasure hunt. The occasional great buy feeds the treasure hunt to do it again. So again, I am in a damn perpetual cycle of hunting, acquiring and appreciating these objects. Through research on these items I have learned more about history and other cultures than I ever did in school. So that speaks a bit about how I got here. As far as a collecting philosophy I don't have one. I tend to gravitate towards certain regions or style of weapons so I have never been able to narrow the focus to one thing. If something catches my eye and I have the means at that time to get it then that is what I do. My philosophy is to fully learn and appreciate these ethnographic objects for their historical significance, their cultural significance, their artistic significance and finally their quality of craftsmanship. Doing that feeds that inner collector child except instead of Fantastic Four, Thor, Avengers and the Justice League it's Tibetan Ke Tri, Ottoman shamshir, Moro Kalis and Indian Tulwar. I am interested in seeing where this evolves for me in 20 years. I have a feeling the vicious cycle will continue!

24th August 2014, 09:40 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Although my life-long passion has been the keris, I do collect other things as well, other weaponry of course, but also paper weights, carvings in various mediums, Australian rural paintings, pocket knives, cameras, South East Asian ethnographica, precious and semi precious stones, watches, books, bicycles and so on and so on and so on. When it comes right down to it, I collect things that I like, I'm the person who has to live with what I buy, and I do not need to satisfy anybody but myself. For instance, my two favourite paper weight types are at opposite ends of the spectrum:- end-of-day weights, and flower weights, especially flower weights with filigree work. I'll buy any other weights that might appeal to me on any particular day also. I understand the quality indicators in paper weights, and I understand the hierarchy of the various makers, but these things don't influence me when I buy, I buy what I like. I do not buy weights for investment, nor with any intention to resell, I buy because I like looking at them and handling them. Now, if I consider the things that influence me to buy keris, in fact, my way of buying is not much different to my way of buying paper weights:- I buy those keris that I like. It wasn't always thus, when I began to collect keris I bought every keris I found and that I could afford to buy. By age 30 I finished up with one hell of a lot of keris that I gradually decreased in number over the next 10 or 12 years. But I did learn a lot from that early collection. For about the last 30 or so years my keris collecting has been much more selective, but it is still governed by the principle of buying what I like. So, my collecting habits are very subjective. I do not collect keris based on rarity, nor on quality, nor on artistic merit, nor on any other consistent, logically defensible factor. However, it would probably be fair to say that my lengthy involvement with keris collecting does seem to dictate that the keris that I like are almost invariably quite desirable in one way or another, even if it is sometimes necessary to point out to a fellow collector why I find a particular piece desirable. Desirability in anything is not always obvious, nor is it governed by any single consistent factor.

25th August 2014, 11:58 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	As I have said, for me, it is subjective. All the things I collect I have very long experience with. Because of this there are various factors that can effect my decision to buy. When I was much less experienced with keris I used to focus on just the fact that it was a keris, this was when I was a kid of 12 or 14 years old, then later, in my twenties and thirties I was looking for the rare and unusual; after I gained knowledge of how quality is assessed in a keris I focussed on quality, and sought keris of the very best quality I could afford. All these stages in my collecting of keris have added to the way I now look at a keris, so each appraisal of a keris becomes subjective, although that subjectivity is guided, often intuitively guided, by very long objective experience. Will I buy a very badly damaged keris that may appear to be no more than junk? Yes. Provided it has a feature that makes it worthy of study, or it is worth putting time into to restore. My core collection contains not only keris with six figure values, but also keris that even very experienced internationally known collectors have needed guidance before they were able to understand the value of the piece. In my opinion this type of in depth study is what is required to gain true knowledge. Will I buy a paperweight with chips or flaws? Yes. For similar reasons that apply to my keris collecting:- to gain knowledge. I do have some very good weights, but the knowledge that has permitted me to acquire those weights has come from the study of weights that are less perfect. Bicycles? I started to race when I was 16 and I finally gave it away for good when I was 42. I still ride a bike. Mostly a mountain bike on bush tracks, but I have a total of 10 or 12 bikes 3 or 4 of which get used constantly --- mountain bike, fixie, road bike. I need to keep the number down to about ten because I don't have the space to keep any more, so I am always selling one or buying one. Some of the nicest bikes I've owned have come from the local rubbish tip. I bought one a couple of weeks ago that I sold yesterday to my exercise physiologist. This bike is a 1960's Peugeot, Nervex Professional lugs, all second string competition components from the 1960's, when I bought it I paid $10. It looked like pure crap, filthy, chain rusted solid, lousy paint job, wheels out of true. A real mess. It took me a couple of days and about $60 to turn it into a very classy fixie. It’s a 23" square frame, which is far too big for me, otherwise I would have kept it, instead of passing it on to somebody else. Would I buy a bike with missing wheels? Oh yes, most definitely. I'd buy a bike with missing or broken anything, provided it was good bike and I could fix it. I enjoy the process of fixing. As I said in my previous post:- "Desirability in anything is not always obvious, nor is it governed by any single consistent factor."