The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[David]

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by David

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

I think that the link you kindly provided says it all...that the dance was performed before starting out on a raid. It would seem very unlikely that after the dance, the swords used there were changed for fighting swords.

[A.alnakkas]

So basically, Ibrahim's argument to be summed up about the straight Omani saif (called kattara by western collectors but confirmed to be simply called saif by Omanis while the curved version is named kattara) is a dancing sword ONLY for 300 years or so is the following:

1- a quote that doesnt exist.
2- modern made swords.
3- claiming genuine antiques with non-flexible blades to be fakes. Which is baffling to say the least.
4- Using a news article that speaks about the modern dancing sword and that its not sharp "to avoid injury" and using it as some sort of evidence that the whole sword type is dancing only.
5- Using obvious fakes with poor taste mounts as some sort of evidence.
6- Lack of a 'dancing' katara that isnt 2 days old.
7- Using items altered in his shop as evidence.

At the risk of being banned, I call bullshit when I see it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

So basically, Ibrahim's argument to be summed up about the straight Omani saif (called kattara by western collectors but confirmed to be simply called saif by Omanis while the curved version is named kattara) is a dancing sword ONLY for 300 years or so is the following:

1- a quote that doesnt exist.
2- modern made swords.
3- claiming genuine antiques with non-flexible blades to be fakes. Which is baffling to say the least.
4- Using a news article that speaks about the modern dancing sword and that its not sharp "to avoid injury" and using it as some sort of evidence that the whole sword type is dancing only.
5- Using obvious fakes with poor taste mounts as some sort of evidence.
6- Lack of a 'dancing' katara that isnt 2 days old.
7- Using items altered in his shop as evidence.

At the risk of being banned, I call bullshit when I see it.

Ought you not to know better ? I refer you to the 10 point summary but would ask you to remain polite in your reply and honourable which is the tradition amongst men. Do you really expect that your 7 points can be seriously viewed? Have you done any research? Produce a counter play. Why would I not want to uncover a potential battle sword? I can tell you for sure that if another battle sword existed based upon the dancer design I would already have shown it... so come on lets hear your thesis on the weapon and if it holds water I will even go out and see if I can uncover one...Do you suppose I didn't try to do that?

I spent the last week with the beni kaab and they all had a good laugh when I explained the story. The ghost sword never existed ... It is a red herring.... It never happened.

For you however I invite you to drop in on Muttrah ... I will show you the workshops and introduce you to the artisans who did the switches... Nothing wrong with that if you know the souk ...They have done this down the ages... Its what sells there...You know?...business.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ought you not to know better ? I refer you to the 10 point summary but would ask you to remain polite in your reply and honourable which is the tradition amongst men.

You have been disrespecting members who have debated you all the time. I guess perhaps, you should listen to your own advice. And I guess, thinking an argument is bullshit counts as disrespectful to a person? Well, thats interesting.

As for your summary, it is exactly the repetition of arguments that make no sense.

Originally Posted by IBrahim al Balooshi

so come on lets hear your thesis on the weapon and if it holds water I will even go out and see if I can uncover one...Do you suppose I didn't try to do that?

If replying to silly hypothesis about a particular sword requires a real thesis in reply, I doubt there will be any research.

But thanks for the advice, you never know what might happen!

Originally Posted by IBrahim al Balooshi

The ghost sword never existed ... It is a red herring.... It never happened.

The examples you have shown are brand new or new dressed old blades. Everyone with experience in the field of antiques can tell the difference.

Now examples that belong in many western collections (and Arab ones, which I plan to bring out photos of soon) are better dressed, have rich mounts that are simply a hassle to make for a fake yet you claim those are fake without producing any evidence.

Btw, we are still waiting for an antique flexible saif, all the ones we saw coming from you are new.

[Gavin Nugent]

Too funny...

The fighting sword type has been presented in form and in theory, yet you do not embrace it....you do not seek to explore it, only refute the data provided with wild guesses, long indirect stories and no facts to support further wild claims.

Your stories about what I had presented have also been changed and swapped around within the 17 months this thread has been running...and then without honour addressed in a most distasteful manner....

Now the hard questions I pose are passed in full and other's questions are answered with so much fat any hope of a straight answer is lost.

it is all good fun. do continue.

Post Script; the entire notion of dances swords in a modern context is wonderful and embraced. But to go beyond the 19th century, the discussion should be "Oman swords danced with", knowing many types were used over time. The long handled straight sword was used for both fighting and dancing..it is all rather clear.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I think that the link you kindly provided says it all...that the dance was performed before starting out on a raid. It would seem very unlikely that after the dance, the swords used there were changed for fighting swords.

Salaams khanjar 1. Why not?.. The dancing sword was part of the tribal infantrymans kit. Most of what these guards did was salutation and pageant. They needed the Heraldic item to do all of them.

As a physical effort I agree done to intensity the mimic fight could have been quite energetic and maybe they got pumped up doing it... but they didnt go off and attack anyone with these wobbly blades and they didn't have another sword like it with a hard blade... but if a sword was needed... a quick diversion down the Fort Armoury and draw a Battle Sword .. or in fact no swords .. Guns only.. The Abufuttila..and/or spears.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The dancing sword was part of the tribal infantrymans kit.

Please refresh my memory, perhaps I read too quick...where is this historically referenced?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104396533277

Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...

What your reference indicates is that ...first there was also another dance with daggers ... I will set that aside first as from another Funun Genre called the "Baraa..." very much part of the Funun in the Salalah or Dhofar region.

On the Dancing Sword what you say is partly right... before the springy dancing sword the Battle Sword was used in the Funun... (it goes way back thats why its called "the traditions")... It didn't suddenly start with the dancing sword. This explains why the accoutrement..the Terrs ... and the sharp edges and round tip are copied onto the dancer... from the Battle Sword. In this regard it is time specific as an invention at or about the start of the current dynasty but which I think is 70 or 80 years later... in the reign of Said bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856...

Your reference describes the Razha.... (I was not accurate in describing that) It involves the lines of dancing participants... The other pantomime or semi contest is the mimic fight...with 2 participants and the single winning point won by touching the opponents thumb behind his terrs shield.

It is however vital to separate the two functions of fighting sword and dancer. The dancer was never a fighting sword and no other derivitive of it existed with some thicker blade... It just is not there. If it was the museums would have them hanging on the walls and in glass cases and with write ups....None ! The Reference work from Richardson and Dorr would be teaming with them.... and the simple question to fathers, grandfathers and elders ... Was this sword or anything similar ever used in fighting?.... Puzzled looks.... Retorts like "are you crackers"?... hahaha!! general mirth and poking of fun and derision....and mutterings.... No way.

It therefor begs the question... where have these thicker heavier non flexible blades come from.... They are post 1970 Muttrah rehilts as described.

Yes you are correct in that I know what the sword is and indeed it is an inference logically based ... The Manga were the dancers from Muscat ... This was the Funun... so knowing that the traditions were only done with the dancer....etc... Inference...

I said there was no silver bullet at my summary, however, the great body of work is indicative of the heraldic, non combat dancer... with the flexible blade.... No other weapon based upon this form ever existed.

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...
.

Bonjour Ibrahim!

You supposedly had your reference . 3 days ago when you posted this .

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all ~Readers may recall that the famous historian on Zanzibar; H. Ingrams wrote about Manga(Omani) and non Manga(African Zanzibari tribals) and the difference in the way they danced using quite different swords m,any of which were fighting blades.... I found the sketch which illustrates that in terms of the latter style. It could be said that the African style is more frenzied and without the rhythmic structure of the Omani technique and the swords are anything with a blade curved or any shape and long guns and whatever else comes to hand...

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

.

You were very precise then... Some haven't notice you only play confused ^ muddy the waters when your caught out. Your quite confident & concise when on the attack.

There have been several print runs... all of the same text! there called reprints, there not translations or interpretations!

So to reiterate you state.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

And that is a lie.

It really is that simple.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Bonjour Ibrahim!

You supposedly had your reference . 3 days ago when you posted this .



You were very precise then... Some haven't notice you only play confused ^ muddy the waters when your caught out. Your quite confident & concise when on the attack.

There have been several print runs... all of the same text! there called reprints, there not translations or interpretations!

So to reiterate you state.



And that is a lie.

It really is that simple.

Spiral

Salaams Spiral, I refer you to my 10 point plan but I do reply to your post in the hope that you observe the common courtesy demanded of this Forum since from my viewpoint I have studied this subject thoroughly whilst others have only scratched the surface... and I have always been aware of the heated nature of this discussion... heat is ok... when it's correctly turned up... The hot anvil of discussion.

There is a vast omount of work to be done on this sword both in and out of museums and documents and I must have driven thousands of miles around the country finding out the facts. Oman is a country that only ventured into the modern world in 1970... much is still undocumented fully.

Forum is the first priority insofar as I am concerned and if I have uncovered a demon... a sword that has no place in the countrys history then I will report just that... and I have done. It's a non starter... It's a red herring ... It doesn't and never did exist...I wish it did ...

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Shalom Ibrahim.

To save the repetition of typing...

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

No, you are not... you are a person, to whom a false quotation means "to break a few eggs along the way" (quote Ibrahiim al Balooshi).

And that together with your scholarly attitude.

[Andrew]

Okay, gentlemen. Here is how this is going to work.

The next person (or persons) who is unable to continue this "debate" in a neutral, objective manner will cause this thread to be locked, and will receive a 10 day suspension of posting privileges.

This means you should studiously avoid including any comment within your post that the least aggravated among us might construe as rude, inflammatory, ad hominem, a "dig", etc. Perhaps you might even consider limiting your comments to---wait for it---the merits of the other posters' comments, rather than the posters themselves.

We rapidly approach critical mass here...

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Forum ~ The well documented detail of the flexible dancing sword can be seen at the fine reference from David viz; http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21104401332677 and until I can trace the reference by H Ingrams who it can be seen at my post above was a fine historian who wrote the book on Zanzibar and in fact another load of anecdotes on Hadramaut ..who knows maybe it is one of those references that got crossed in the system though if my memory serves me well I am almost certain it was on the subject of Manga ...a structure I had never heard about until I wrote the reference in Kattara for comments...a while ago but researchers know well my predicament and that when it turns up I will place it here.

Meanwhile the Omani Dancing Sword wrongly or mistakenly mis-reported down the ages from the early 18th C by the half dozen or so visitors to Oman continues to stretch the imagination unabated though hopefully with restraint and honourability amongst men...

I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon.

Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...moreover they are bendy to over 90 degrees some more or less than others by a few degrees. They are very flexible... and clearly this blade type is no fighter...not only because the question has been asked here where they just laugh at the notion but because it simply doesn't stack up ... A rigid blade would make mincemeat of this in a real contest... moreover it is the famed dancer of Funun traditional dancing...and despite its sharp edges it simply cannot be something it is not.

To date no known battle sword in this configuration exists except in the imagination of the early 19th C visitors etc but people are doubly hoodwinked by those narratives and the appearance in Souks of the Ethiopian blade ... please allow me to smile at this point... its amazing.... Where was I..?. Oh yes the Ethiopian blade rehilted on the Omani longhilt from about 1970.

Some forum members have alluded to this blade or a fighting blade with a thick stiff blade ...that is built like a dancing sword ..It does not exist in reality as a historical fact...It is a red herring. Tribal soldiers carried the Sword and Terrs as part of their equipment since they were required to do pageant and saluting with it all the time and to stay fit the mimic fight was quite useful but done more in the pageant...in The Funun as at the reference at the top of this post.

Anyone who is somehow able to conjure up a completely unknown weapon of this description will become instantly famous ... An as yet undiscovered fighting sword of Oman. Those individuals who reckon it exists are requested in the time honoured way; to prove it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.