Maori Mere pounamu

kronckew · 14th July 2014, 05:21 PM

thanks for your help, vanadoo. just went thru the tread on fijian clubs that had a post referring to older maori threads. quite informative.

in fact, it lead me to tim's post here

it looks like i have (post 9 above), not the original, but a darn good copy of the no. 48 in a. hamilton's book. i note a few minor variations in the patterns, on the grip area. and there is more apparent abalone shell inlayed eyes on the main tiki, 3 longitudinal bands, not 4. looked very hard to see any carving errors, border over runs, etc. didn't see any. oddly, the ends of the fibrous lanyard are sewn together along with the bits of feather.

very dark wood (NZ Tawa?). 43 cm. long, 15 cm. wide, 2 cm. thick, 312 gm.
teeny chip in edge shows wood fibres, same dark colour. bearing in mid the statements about plastic copies, i did the hot pin test. it's wood. i wiped it down with an oily rag (BLO) as there were a few dusty areas and it appeared a bit dry. it absorbed all the oil fairly quickly.

p.s. - found this jade manaia (bottom), thought it would hang nicely on the wall with the clubs when i display them.

kronckew · 19th July 2014, 12:47 PM

plain wood patu from post 8 arrived today. 16" (41cm.) x 4" (10.2cm.) as noted, deep dark brown hard wood (tawa?) with a smooth semigloss oil finish. heavy, 390 grams. quite a sharp striking edge. no lanyard hole (i added the temporary lanyard at the 4th incised pommel ring), no surface dings, no visible edge dings, but you can feel a couple teeny ones. don't think this is a tourista model. feels good & deadly in the hand.

ausjulius · 22nd July 2014, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

plain wood patu from post 8 arrived today. 16" (41cm.) x 4" (10.2cm.) as noted, deep dark brown hard wood (tawa?) with a smooth semigloss oil finish. heavy, 390 grams. quite a sharp striking edge. no lanyard hole (i added the temporary lanyard at the 4th incised pommel ring), no surface dings, no visible edge dings, but you can feel a couple teeny ones. don't think this is a tourista model. feels good & deadly in the hand.

about your club but
its for a recent made souvenir type of club,
the wood used, the shape, shape of the pommel ect. lack of lanyard hole all indicate very recent product and not of a traditional form.
ive made some clubs like that when i was younger as well.
i made a crude taiaha as well.

kronckew · 22nd July 2014, 02:47 PM

ah, well - didn't pay much for it. still feels like a 'user'. fairly heavy & sharp edges, would definitely hurt and damage someone.

the two 1960's +/- ones feel fairly good too (haven't posted pics of them yet). i've seen some for sale on NZ websites that are cheaper looking and selling for many times what i got those for. also have two that feel really touristy, one (first one i bought) is thin & poorly carved only one side tho it might make a good ping-pong paddle. the other is thicker, much heavier and fairly well carved and inlaid, but is only 12" long and has the initials TV on the grip. the intricately carved one billed as early 20c looks just like the one in the old book, though the patterns are slightly different. it's sharper too.

the lanyard hole in the jade one is flared without a sharp edge, not as polished as the rest but somewhat polished. no tool marks, the inner part of the hole is not shiny but not fresh cut either. can't see any tool marks. i'm not gonna bang it against anything hard to see if it cracks.

i've thumped it into my hand - that hurts.

sadly, i cannot afford the older 'real' antique ones i've seen in teeny pictures on antique dealers sites listed at ten times my most expensive one so far. you get what you pay for, but a good recent one is better than nothing. in the end, i will not be using them for their old pre contact, pre political correctness, purposes, just like the steel edged weapons i have of assorted ages. they are for dreaming. the age that these weapons evolved for is long gone and exists only in our minds and the history books.

the 'vintage' 16" tourist wahaika ones: top 2.
the small 12" wahaika TV
the thin 'modern' kotiate:

ausjulius · 22nd July 2014, 04:12 PM

yeah the real deal is very pricy.
my father owned several antique patu, mere and other maori weapons ... he purchase them in the 1960s during a time when collectors didnt value them as much and many Maoris considered them items of an "uncivilized" past unless they were specifically important to their own family.

back then quality ones could be found in antique shops all over the country... sadly he sold them all many years ago.

yeah the club you go looks like a modern made patu somebody was making after seeing the original and then deciding they wanted a weapon like it. i remember meeting a maori guy in a pub once who had a homemade patu with the grip wrapped in electrical tape stuck in the back of his shorts..
seems like that sort of item not a tourist item but not old more like a weapon somebody has made.

mostly the tourist ones will have the correct pommel shape and grip dimensions and be of rather soft stained wood ..

the green stone mere looks very recent. 35 or so years.

greenstone is rather soft and as it is used over time it wll take a very glossy smooth finish lanyar hole will become very smooth if they are originals that have been used with their lanyard as historically these were always used with their lanyard. nothign like dropping your stone club and seeing it broken on the ground if the thing cost you 10 slaves youd be mighty pissed

kronckew · 22nd July 2014, 05:47 PM

interesting. nice to correspond with someone with a NZ connection.

the plain club with the 4 ring pommel was described as 'polynesian' and they added 'thought to be of a maori design'. again, 'vintage'. the best one seems to be the highly carved 18" one in my post 15.

ausjulius · 23rd July 2014, 04:29 AM

thanks i was born in northland near dargaville in n.z.
when we were kids wed play games like maoris and rangers hahaha ive never heard of other n.z. kids playing such a game it was always cowboys and indians or cops and robbers ect at my cousins place.. when wed play we'd have some rhymes like -
"im the ghost of hongi heke one more step and ill bite your teke" teke implying something phallic , then make some crazy war dance.
use flax flower stems and muskets and taiaha ..

wed use the wooden play equipment at school or a tree house as a pa (fortress) guys who captured by the maoris got eaten haha

it always interested me as to why the maori didnt have bows while most of Polynesia did.
my father had some place very small stone tips like arrow heads from the south island, but they were presumed to be whipping dart heads. long darts throw with a line or cord.
although im not sure they were awfully small.

the mere were close combat and dueling weapons. used like a meat cleaver or a dagger almost. lots of jabs to the face and neck.
in pictures the maori always have them out in hand and in paintings they are show stuck in the belt, but i find this hard to believe they were very valuable and fragile i sounder how they were carried when in use as the maori warrior would carry many weapons . adze, several clubs, axe, spear , taiaha ect.. when you see videos of melinesians i tribal fights they seem to stick all the weapons down the back of their laplap or loincloth wrapping but moris i just can imagine doing this with something valuable. .

in the past maori used long lances 15-20 feet long or more and javalins as their main weapons in massed combat, good for defending and attacking pa fortifications..
but most of these things became obsolescent before europeans arrived . as soon as one guy got a gun ... boom.. i believe that maori warfare became very ritualized with rules and rituals some decades prior to the arrival of europeans, things were getting very tribalism big tribes splitting into smaller and smaller ones each chief having a fortified village, instead of big confederations or kingdoms like hawaii, tonga or fiji... and so these types of weapons became more and more... unsporting.. and the close in dueling weapons and the fighting styles that go with them became more common. if you had a chief in the other village who you hated youd want to beat him in personal combat for everyone to see not see him stuck with a dart form some commoner..

that why the long maori weapons are so very rare today, while the short weapons are rather common..

14th July 2014, 05:21 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	thanks for your help, vanadoo. just went thru the tread on fijian clubs that had a post referring to older maori threads. quite informative. in fact, it lead me to tim's post here it looks like i have (post 9 above), not the original, but a darn good copy of the no. 48 in a. hamilton's book. i note a few minor variations in the patterns, on the grip area. and there is more apparent abalone shell inlayed eyes on the main tiki, 3 longitudinal bands, not 4. looked very hard to see any carving errors, border over runs, etc. didn't see any. oddly, the ends of the fibrous lanyard are sewn together along with the bits of feather. very dark wood (NZ Tawa?). 43 cm. long, 15 cm. wide, 2 cm. thick, 312 gm. teeny chip in edge shows wood fibres, same dark colour. bearing in mid the statements about plastic copies, i did the hot pin test. it's wood. i wiped it down with an oily rag (BLO) as there were a few dusty areas and it appeared a bit dry. it absorbed all the oil fairly quickly. p.s. - found this jade manaia (bottom), thought it would hang nicely on the wall with the clubs when i display them. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 15th July 2014 at 12:15 AM.

19th July 2014, 12:47 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	plain wood patu from post 8 arrived today. 16" (41cm.) x 4" (10.2cm.) as noted, deep dark brown hard wood (tawa?) with a smooth semigloss oil finish. heavy, 390 grams. quite a sharp striking edge. no lanyard hole (i added the temporary lanyard at the 4th incised pommel ring), no surface dings, no visible edge dings, but you can feel a couple teeny ones. don't think this is a tourista model. feels good & deadly in the hand. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 19th July 2014 at 01:04 PM.

22nd July 2014, 02:47 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	ah, well - didn't pay much for it. still feels like a 'user'. fairly heavy & sharp edges, would definitely hurt and damage someone. the two 1960's +/- ones feel fairly good too (haven't posted pics of them yet). i've seen some for sale on NZ websites that are cheaper looking and selling for many times what i got those for. also have two that feel really touristy, one (first one i bought) is thin & poorly carved only one side tho it might make a good ping-pong paddle. the other is thicker, much heavier and fairly well carved and inlaid, but is only 12" long and has the initials TV on the grip. the intricately carved one billed as early 20c looks just like the one in the old book, though the patterns are slightly different. it's sharper too. the lanyard hole in the jade one is flared without a sharp edge, not as polished as the rest but somewhat polished. no tool marks, the inner part of the hole is not shiny but not fresh cut either. can't see any tool marks. i'm not gonna bang it against anything hard to see if it cracks. i've thumped it into my hand - that hurts. sadly, i cannot afford the older 'real' antique ones i've seen in teeny pictures on antique dealers sites listed at ten times my most expensive one so far. you get what you pay for, but a good recent one is better than nothing. in the end, i will not be using them for their old pre contact, pre political correctness, purposes, just like the steel edged weapons i have of assorted ages. they are for dreaming. the age that these weapons evolved for is long gone and exists only in our minds and the history books. the 'vintage' 16" tourist wahaika ones: top 2. the small 12" wahaika TV the thin 'modern' kotiate: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 22nd July 2014 at 03:11 PM.

22nd July 2014, 04:12 PM	#5
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 446	yeah the real deal is very pricy. my father owned several antique patu, mere and other maori weapons ... he purchase them in the 1960s during a time when collectors didnt value them as much and many Maoris considered them items of an "uncivilized" past unless they were specifically important to their own family. back then quality ones could be found in antique shops all over the country... sadly he sold them all many years ago. yeah the club you go looks like a modern made patu somebody was making after seeing the original and then deciding they wanted a weapon like it. i remember meeting a maori guy in a pub once who had a homemade patu with the grip wrapped in electrical tape stuck in the back of his shorts.. seems like that sort of item not a tourist item but not old more like a weapon somebody has made. mostly the tourist ones will have the correct pommel shape and grip dimensions and be of rather soft stained wood .. the green stone mere looks very recent. 35 or so years. greenstone is rather soft and as it is used over time it wll take a very glossy smooth finish lanyar hole will become very smooth if they are originals that have been used with their lanyard as historically these were always used with their lanyard. nothign like dropping your stone club and seeing it broken on the ground if the thing cost you 10 slaves youd be mighty pissed

22nd July 2014, 05:47 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	interesting. nice to correspond with someone with a NZ connection. the plain club with the 4 ring pommel was described as 'polynesian' and they added 'thought to be of a maori design'. again, 'vintage'. the best one seems to be the highly carved 18" one in my post 15.

23rd July 2014, 04:29 AM	#7
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 446	thanks i was born in northland near dargaville in n.z. when we were kids wed play games like maoris and rangers hahaha ive never heard of other n.z. kids playing such a game it was always cowboys and indians or cops and robbers ect at my cousins place.. when wed play we'd have some rhymes like - "im the ghost of hongi heke one more step and ill bite your teke" teke implying something phallic , then make some crazy war dance. use flax flower stems and muskets and taiaha .. wed use the wooden play equipment at school or a tree house as a pa (fortress) guys who captured by the maoris got eaten haha it always interested me as to why the maori didnt have bows while most of Polynesia did. my father had some place very small stone tips like arrow heads from the south island, but they were presumed to be whipping dart heads. long darts throw with a line or cord. although im not sure they were awfully small. the mere were close combat and dueling weapons. used like a meat cleaver or a dagger almost. lots of jabs to the face and neck. in pictures the maori always have them out in hand and in paintings they are show stuck in the belt, but i find this hard to believe they were very valuable and fragile i sounder how they were carried when in use as the maori warrior would carry many weapons . adze, several clubs, axe, spear , taiaha ect.. when you see videos of melinesians i tribal fights they seem to stick all the weapons down the back of their laplap or loincloth wrapping but moris i just can imagine doing this with something valuable. . in the past maori used long lances 15-20 feet long or more and javalins as their main weapons in massed combat, good for defending and attacking pa fortifications.. but most of these things became obsolescent before europeans arrived . as soon as one guy got a gun ... boom.. i believe that maori warfare became very ritualized with rules and rituals some decades prior to the arrival of europeans, things were getting very tribalism big tribes splitting into smaller and smaller ones each chief having a fortified village, instead of big confederations or kingdoms like hawaii, tonga or fiji... and so these types of weapons became more and more... unsporting.. and the close in dueling weapons and the fighting styles that go with them became more common. if you had a chief in the other village who you hated youd want to beat him in personal combat for everyone to see not see him stuck with a dart form some commoner.. that why the long maori weapons are so very rare today, while the short weapons are rather common..