Pietro Hernandez swordmaker

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2014, 06:45 PM

As well noted by Fernando, the name Pedro in Italian parlance is Pietro.
The crucifix mark was used by some German makers (Coll, Clele) as well as Pedro Hernandez, who was of the famed Toledo family, whose patriarch was Sebastian (worked 1570-1600, but still living c.1637 (Mann, Wallace Coll. p.281).
His son Pedro worked c.1610-1630, while younger Johannes Hernandez worked around 1660 ("Rapiers" Eric Valentine, 1968, p.67).

The joining of Spanish and German names well illustrates the presence of German swordsmiths in Spain much in the manner of their presence in England.

As noted, many hilts, particularly rapiers, were fashioned in North Italy, and both the Solingen makers as well as the Spain based counterparts produced blades with spellings and entire surnames reflecting languages accordingly.

There were blades with Sebastian's name produced later spuriously (his genuine blades typically had his crowned 'Z' and the typically seen 'OT' and crescent moon which were known Toledo marks (Mann, op. cit. p.281)Spanish makers puncones were characteristically on ricasso.

Hopefully these details might assist in the assessment of this sword and its elements.

All best regards,
Jim

ulfberth · 13th July 2014, 08:04 PM

fernando and Jim, thanks for your comments.

I remember the sword having stamps but they were not so clear however one of them looked like a half moon.

Pietro Hernandez is not a name i saw before, the different spelling of the same name seems te be verry common on blades of that period.
Andrea Ferrara is sush an example the same goes for antonio pichinnino and i'm sure there are more examples.
In case of Andrea Ferrara i heard that some used name a quality mark on the blade, perhaps some motives were commercial.
The spelling of names in those day's was as the were prenounced, in other words the wrote it down as they heard it.
Perhaps it would be interesting to make a list of different way's of spelling of sword makers names on blades.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2014, 09:42 PM

The crescent moon stamp is believed to have originated in Spain and likely some sort of collectively used stamp which augmented the makers mark, perhaps in a guild type sense.
With makers names, in many cases the well renowned names, especially from Toledo, were spuriously used for many generations, and in a way became rather 'brand' names . The famed Sahagun name of smiths of Toledo were used in Solingen in that sense, most of the blades destined for centers in Europe. The Andrea Ferara phenomenon is another case, with most of these blades destined from Germany to Scottish customers. It has been widely disputed whether there was such a person as Andrea Ferara, or whether this was a contrived term for quality (ferara= iron; Andrea, Andrew= good, true) . The Scots associated the term with their patron saint St Andrew.

As you know, Ulfbehrt has similar connotation perspectives and while possibly a workshop name, is not generally held to be a single makers name as I understand.

The origins and meanings of these names are an ever debated and studied subject.

As noted, spellings were often varied as literacy as well as applying names by those who were not necessarily speakers of the language were mitigating factors.

ulfberth · 14th July 2014, 02:58 PM

Hello Jim,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge I just learned something new.

That's the first time I heard the meaning of the Andrea Ferara name and the more I think about it the more it seems possible that is was a brand instead of a name.
I mean thank about it what are the odds that " Ferdinand Porches means " German sportscar " huh ?

I checked the blade today and there is a moon slightly visible on both sides of the ricasso and a stamp I can't define, also there is writing in capital letters on the side of the ricasso and on both sides.

Kind regards

Dirk

fernando · 14th July 2014, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As well noted by Fernando, the name Pedro in Italian parlance is Pietro.
The crucifix mark was used by some German makers (Coll, Clele) as well as Pedro Hernandez, who was of the famed Toledo family, whose patriarch was Sebastian (worked 1570-1600, but still living c.1637 (Mann, Wallace Coll. p.281).
His son Pedro worked c.1610-1630, while younger Johannes Hernandez worked around 1660 ("Rapiers" Eric Valentine, 1968, p.67).

Well Jim, i must confess i am astonished

.
From the first to the last data i have on the Hernandez sword makers, i have no trace of the family being composed as you reveal.
In Palomar's nomina, a work highly regarded by the several Spanish specialists, only two Hernandez are mentioned as being family; Sebastian the elder (el viejo) and Sebastian the younger (el mozo). I can find no family link between both Pedro and Johannes (Juan, for the matter) and old Sebastian.
Go figure

Furthermore, the marks of Pedro Hernandez in the blades kept in the Royal Armeria are rather different from those of Sebastian elder and younger, shown in Palomar nomina and elsewhere. Also surprising that the catalogue author Count Don Juan didn't recognize Pedro Hernandez as belonging to the famous Hernandez family.
On the other hand, reading James Mann's assumption that Pedro and Juan belong in Sebastian's family and paging the various quoted examples, i find such allusions a bit erratic. I hope Sir James pardons my irreverent ignorance

Gavin Nugent · 15th July 2014, 05:16 AM

One from the past for reference;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=Hernandez

Post # 72 I show another sword by a "Hernandez"

Gavin

fernando · 15th July 2014, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

One from the past for reference;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=Hernandez

Post # 72 I show another sword by a "Hernandez"

Gavin

Such a beautiful blade, Gavin.
But assuming it was forged by the real Hernandez, it is remounted in a hilt at least one centuty later ... the so called 'boca de caballo' (horse mouth)
... if i am not talking nonsense

.

ulfberth · 15th July 2014, 05:54 PM

Hello Fernando,

since the rapier has an Italian style of hilt, could it be possible that the blade was made for export to Italy and that Pedro was signed as Pietro ?
Or could it be that author sword makers of the time just used a famous name ?

Kind regards Dirk

Jim McDougall · 15th July 2014, 06:24 PM

Nando, you have set some well placed questions, and trust me, Sir James would be delighted that the subject would be challenged and looked into further! This topic is profoundly daunting, and it is easy to see why these matters are seldom adequately addressed in discussions.

It is complicated, and I have spent days now poring through every resource I have....the bookmobile looks like an explosion in a library

First I will note, it was not James Mann who made the allusion to the questioned Hernandez lineage, but Eric Valentine in his book "Rapiers" (1968).
On p.67:
"...the Hernandez family were Toledo swordsmiths . Sebastian Hernandez the elder worked approximately 1570-1600; Pedro the younger was working 1610-1630 and Johannes in 1660."

As can be seen, the chronological lineage might easily suggest the family connection, but it is puzzling since Valentine cites Calvert ( "Spanish Arms & Armour", 1907) which contain Palomares punzone plates. As noted, in those plates both Sebastian, elder and younger are imaged and both with a crowned '3' as their mark (even more strangely Mann, p.281, remarks that this mark is a crowned 'Z'!).

While Valentine made the suggestion of this presumed Hernandez lineage, it was apparently derived from Mann's index in reference to these makers with same names. What is notably absent is any reference to Sebastian the younger as far as I can see, yet Pedro and Johannes are indeed represented.

In Palomares there is yet another Hernandez shown which does not seem to be grouped with the elder and younger Sebastian's, that is Roque whose punzone is similar but a crowned 'S' (#88).

I believe these conundrums have become complicated due to the interpolation of markings and names used by German makers who were as well known using Spanish names and marks. As well noted, it would seem that Pedro and Johannes would appear in the Palomares register, and that authoritative reference is the source for the secondary Sebastian, who does not seem to occur in other sources.

Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, p.186, pl. 6) has a rapier shown with PIETRO HERNANDEZ inscription and the note that he "..lived in the first half of 17th c in Toledo". Here he is noted to have used the crucifix as his mark (re: Boeheim, 1890, p.669). In Boeheim he notes Pedro on that page, but shows a curious collection of his marks....a crowned P; a crowned F; a faced crescent moon and most telling, a crowned S over T.
Nowhere here is the crucifix other references attribute to him.

As is well known, the crowned S over T is seen in Palomares as that of Tomas de Aiala (Mann, A567, A643) in #93. However, Mann, A532 has this mark but with SEBASTIAN HERNANDEZ inscribed. That particular blade is noted as probably a German imitation c.1620.
Mann (A652) notes on p.331 that "...as well as using the half moon mark, the Stantlers of Munich also employed the crowned S over T'.
Valentine notes a well established fact on p.66, that the TOMAS DE AIALA name had become used as a trademark.

In checking "German Swords and Swordmakers" (Bezdek, p.154) we see the crowned ST as the mark of Christoph Stantler of Munich, 1607-1643. Here we can see other Spanish punzones in several cases used by German makers as their own. Other instances abound with these Spanish names often with other marks not in Palomares It is noted that Pedro used the crucifix, but that this mark was similar to other German makers (Cleles and Col). Col was of course Enrique Col (Heinrich Col) who was a German maker in Spain (1590-1610 per Wagner p174)...who incidentally often used inscription MI SINNAL SANTISMO CRUCIFICIO ( my mark is the crucifix).

Mann, A533 notes that Pedro Hernandez, the younger, in addition to his crowned '3' worked in both Toledo and Seville and used the mark of a 'wild man'. According to Mann (p.327) and Bezdek (p.138) this mark is that of Johannes Hoppe of Solingen c1630, but some references show range 1580-1645.

It is worthy of note that by 1561 the economy and in league, the trade in Toledo had begun to deteriorate due to the Royal Court moving to Madrid, and by 1664 the economy and trade in swords virtually in ruin (Cohen, "By the Sword", p.115). Here can be seen the movement of makers to other centers and the developing alliance with German makers. It is well established that fine armor from Munich was entering Spanish courts, and that the Stantlers were using the reputation of Spanish sword makers quid pro quo does not seem surprising .

There are so many other instances and cross references that it would be fruitless to try to add it all here, with the apparent interchangeable use of marks similar or nearly identical by Spanish makers and interpolation with German smiths making these kinds of sound assertions in tracing lineage and actual makers difficult at best.

Gav, thank you for adding that beautiful blade!!! This is a great illustration of these Spanish names being used as quality trademarks in Solingen, and by the time of these swords in the 18th century it was profoundly Solingen supplying the blades.

If I may add my thoughts to the question concerning Italian style hilt etc.
Much of Northern Italy was provincially part of Spain, and Spain typically looked to Italy regarding fashion in arms and armor. At the same time Germany was rather in the middle in production of arms and it would seem factored in the Italian style while using Spanish names . It was noted by Walter Karcheski on the armour worn by Spanish conquistadors that more often than not, the much recognized morions worn by some Spanish officers were actually Italian. Again, returning to Munich, some were German.

References: "Waffenkunde" Vol. VII, Wendelin Boeheim, 1890 , Leipzig
"Cut and Thrust Weapons", Eduard Wagner, Prague, 1967
"Wallace Collection, European Arms & Armour", Sir James
Mann, London, 1962
"Rapiers, Eric Valentine, Stackpole, 1968
"German Swords and Swordmakers" R Bezdek, 2000
"Spanish Arms and Armour" Albert Calvert, London, 1907
" Arms & Armour" Auguste Demmin, 1877, London

Jim McDougall · 15th July 2014, 07:00 PM

In rechecking my references, and I wanted to add the note here so as not to be lost in my previous and huge text.....I found this in the same page in Boeheim, p.669:

A marking of an S transposed over a T and surmounted by a G as to PEDRO HERNANDEZ of Toledo, 17th c.!!!
There is also a small word la misma (?) in script.

In the Wagner reference to PIETRO HERNANDEZ there is a stamped mark of a clover in a lozenge cartouche with an 'S' over it on the rapier previously mentioned (plate 6) with this name in inscription on blade.
Similar clover devices used in Solingen (as well as Holland with the 'kleeblatt' =clover)....

more support for the complex Solingen connections (a number of Solingen smiths went to Holland) as well as strong suggestion Pedro was indeed separate from the Hernandez lineage proper , and clearly powerfully represented in Solingen context.

fernando · 15th July 2014, 08:29 PM

Yes, Jim.
These things are not linear indeed; let's confuse them a bit further

.
According to Dudley Gingell, the letter S transposed over a T and surmounted by a G belong to Jusepe de la Hera, both younger grandson and great grandson. Amazingly in Palomar's nomina it belongs to all viejo, mozo neto and visneto, the last two with the mention 'la misma' (the same).
In any case never to Pedro Hernandez whom, according to Gingell, used a P, a F, a crucifix and to other figures, one apparently the proof mark T for Toledo.
The same Gingell assumes that Sebastian Hernandez the younger, besides his father crown over a 3, also used the wild man. The confusion increases when Gingell shows a panoply of marks for Sebastian the older, namely the 3 under two types of crown, a S under a cross and a F under a cross, with another cross on the estucheon.
In trying to figure out the meaning of the symbol 3, one finds a theory in that the symbols used by Toledo swordsmiths for their marks were not necessarily the initials of their (usualy) first names but some kind of symbols of contrast indicating the quality of the blade (Florit and Sanchez Canton in Catalogo de las armas del Instituto de Valencia de Don Juan - page 63). In fact, the symbol 3 is also used by Fernandez Ignacio, the younger, for one.

15th July 2014, 08:29 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Switching the complicometer Yes, Jim. These things are not linear indeed; let's confuse them a bit further . According to Dudley Gingell, the letter S transposed over a T and surmounted by a G belong to Jusepe de la Hera, both younger grandson and great grandson. Amazingly in Palomar's nomina it belongs to all viejo, mozo neto and visneto, the last two with the mention 'la misma' (the same). In any case never to Pedro Hernandez whom, according to Gingell, used a P, a F, a crucifix and to other figures, one apparently the proof mark T for Toledo. The same Gingell assumes that Sebastian Hernandez the younger, besides his father crown over a 3, also used the wild man. The confusion increases when Gingell shows a panoply of marks for Sebastian the older, namely the 3 under two types of crown, a S under a cross and a F under a cross, with another cross on the estucheon. In trying to figure out the meaning of the symbol 3, one finds a theory in that the symbols used by Toledo swordsmiths for their marks were not necessarily the initials of their (usualy) first names but some kind of symbols of contrast indicating the quality of the blade (Florit and Sanchez Canton in Catalogo de las armas del Instituto de Valencia de Don Juan - page 63). In fact, the symbol 3 is also used by Fernandez Ignacio, the younger, for one.

13th July 2014, 06:45 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	As well noted by Fernando, the name Pedro in Italian parlance is Pietro. The crucifix mark was used by some German makers (Coll, Clele) as well as Pedro Hernandez, who was of the famed Toledo family, whose patriarch was Sebastian (worked 1570-1600, but still living c.1637 (Mann, Wallace Coll. p.281). His son Pedro worked c.1610-1630, while younger Johannes Hernandez worked around 1660 ("Rapiers" Eric Valentine, 1968, p.67). The joining of Spanish and German names well illustrates the presence of German swordsmiths in Spain much in the manner of their presence in England. As noted, many hilts, particularly rapiers, were fashioned in North Italy, and both the Solingen makers as well as the Spain based counterparts produced blades with spellings and entire surnames reflecting languages accordingly. There were blades with Sebastian's name produced later spuriously (his genuine blades typically had his crowned 'Z' and the typically seen 'OT' and crescent moon which were known Toledo marks (Mann, op. cit. p.281)Spanish makers puncones were characteristically on ricasso. Hopefully these details might assist in the assessment of this sword and its elements. All best regards, Jim

13th July 2014, 08:04 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 430	fernando and Jim, thanks for your comments. I remember the sword having stamps but they were not so clear however one of them looked like a half moon. Pietro Hernandez is not a name i saw before, the different spelling of the same name seems te be verry common on blades of that period. Andrea Ferrara is sush an example the same goes for antonio pichinnino and i'm sure there are more examples. In case of Andrea Ferrara i heard that some used name a quality mark on the blade, perhaps some motives were commercial. The spelling of names in those day's was as the were prenounced, in other words the wrote it down as they heard it. Perhaps it would be interesting to make a list of different way's of spelling of sword makers names on blades. kind regards Ulfberth

13th July 2014, 09:42 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	The crescent moon stamp is believed to have originated in Spain and likely some sort of collectively used stamp which augmented the makers mark, perhaps in a guild type sense. With makers names, in many cases the well renowned names, especially from Toledo, were spuriously used for many generations, and in a way became rather 'brand' names . The famed Sahagun name of smiths of Toledo were used in Solingen in that sense, most of the blades destined for centers in Europe. The Andrea Ferara phenomenon is another case, with most of these blades destined from Germany to Scottish customers. It has been widely disputed whether there was such a person as Andrea Ferara, or whether this was a contrived term for quality (ferara= iron; Andrea, Andrew= good, true) . The Scots associated the term with their patron saint St Andrew. As you know, Ulfbehrt has similar connotation perspectives and while possibly a workshop name, is not generally held to be a single makers name as I understand. The origins and meanings of these names are an ever debated and studied subject. As noted, spellings were often varied as literacy as well as applying names by those who were not necessarily speakers of the language were mitigating factors.

14th July 2014, 02:58 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 430	Hello Jim, Thanks for sharing your knowledge I just learned something new. That's the first time I heard the meaning of the Andrea Ferara name and the more I think about it the more it seems possible that is was a brand instead of a name. I mean thank about it what are the odds that " Ferdinand Porches means " German sportscar " huh ? I checked the blade today and there is a moon slightly visible on both sides of the ricasso and a stamp I can't define, also there is writing in capital letters on the side of the ricasso and on both sides. Kind regards Dirk

15th July 2014, 05:16 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	One from the past for reference; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=Hernandez Post # 72 I show another sword by a "Hernandez" Gavin

15th July 2014, 05:54 PM	#8
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 430	Hello Fernando, since the rapier has an Italian style of hilt, could it be possible that the blade was made for export to Italy and that Pedro was signed as Pietro ? Or could it be that author sword makers of the time just used a famous name ? Kind regards Dirk

15th July 2014, 06:24 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Nando, you have set some well placed questions, and trust me, Sir James would be delighted that the subject would be challenged and looked into further! This topic is profoundly daunting, and it is easy to see why these matters are seldom adequately addressed in discussions. It is complicated, and I have spent days now poring through every resource I have....the bookmobile looks like an explosion in a library First I will note, it was not James Mann who made the allusion to the questioned Hernandez lineage, but Eric Valentine in his book "Rapiers" (1968). On p.67: "...the Hernandez family were Toledo swordsmiths . Sebastian Hernandez the elder worked approximately 1570-1600; Pedro the younger was working 1610-1630 and Johannes in 1660." As can be seen, the chronological lineage might easily suggest the family connection, but it is puzzling since Valentine cites Calvert ( "Spanish Arms & Armour", 1907) which contain Palomares punzone plates. As noted, in those plates both Sebastian, elder and younger are imaged and both with a crowned '3' as their mark (even more strangely Mann, p.281, remarks that this mark is a crowned 'Z'!). While Valentine made the suggestion of this presumed Hernandez lineage, it was apparently derived from Mann's index in reference to these makers with same names. What is notably absent is any reference to Sebastian the younger as far as I can see, yet Pedro and Johannes are indeed represented. In Palomares there is yet another Hernandez shown which does not seem to be grouped with the elder and younger Sebastian's, that is Roque whose punzone is similar but a crowned 'S' (#88). I believe these conundrums have become complicated due to the interpolation of markings and names used by German makers who were as well known using Spanish names and marks. As well noted, it would seem that Pedro and Johannes would appear in the Palomares register, and that authoritative reference is the source for the secondary Sebastian, who does not seem to occur in other sources. Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, p.186, pl. 6) has a rapier shown with PIETRO HERNANDEZ inscription and the note that he "..lived in the first half of 17th c in Toledo". Here he is noted to have used the crucifix as his mark (re: Boeheim, 1890, p.669). In Boeheim he notes Pedro on that page, but shows a curious collection of his marks....a crowned P; a crowned F; a faced crescent moon and most telling, a crowned S over T. Nowhere here is the crucifix other references attribute to him. As is well known, the crowned S over T is seen in Palomares as that of Tomas de Aiala (Mann, A567, A643) in #93. However, Mann, A532 has this mark but with SEBASTIAN HERNANDEZ inscribed. That particular blade is noted as probably a German imitation c.1620. Mann (A652) notes on p.331 that "...as well as using the half moon mark, the Stantlers of Munich also employed the crowned S over T'. Valentine notes a well established fact on p.66, that the TOMAS DE AIALA name had become used as a trademark. In checking "German Swords and Swordmakers" (Bezdek, p.154) we see the crowned ST as the mark of Christoph Stantler of Munich, 1607-1643. Here we can see other Spanish punzones in several cases used by German makers as their own. Other instances abound with these Spanish names often with other marks not in Palomares It is noted that Pedro used the crucifix, but that this mark was similar to other German makers (Cleles and Col). Col was of course Enrique Col (Heinrich Col) who was a German maker in Spain (1590-1610 per Wagner p174)...who incidentally often used inscription MI SINNAL SANTISMO CRUCIFICIO ( my mark is the crucifix). Mann, A533 notes that Pedro Hernandez, the younger, in addition to his crowned '3' worked in both Toledo and Seville and used the mark of a 'wild man'. According to Mann (p.327) and Bezdek (p.138) this mark is that of Johannes Hoppe of Solingen c1630, but some references show range 1580-1645. It is worthy of note that by 1561 the economy and in league, the trade in Toledo had begun to deteriorate due to the Royal Court moving to Madrid, and by 1664 the economy and trade in swords virtually in ruin (Cohen, "By the Sword", p.115). Here can be seen the movement of makers to other centers and the developing alliance with German makers. It is well established that fine armor from Munich was entering Spanish courts, and that the Stantlers were using the reputation of Spanish sword makers quid pro quo does not seem surprising . There are so many other instances and cross references that it would be fruitless to try to add it all here, with the apparent interchangeable use of marks similar or nearly identical by Spanish makers and interpolation with German smiths making these kinds of sound assertions in tracing lineage and actual makers difficult at best. Gav, thank you for adding that beautiful blade!!! This is a great illustration of these Spanish names being used as quality trademarks in Solingen, and by the time of these swords in the 18th century it was profoundly Solingen supplying the blades. If I may add my thoughts to the question concerning Italian style hilt etc. Much of Northern Italy was provincially part of Spain, and Spain typically looked to Italy regarding fashion in arms and armor. At the same time Germany was rather in the middle in production of arms and it would seem factored in the Italian style while using Spanish names . It was noted by Walter Karcheski on the armour worn by Spanish conquistadors that more often than not, the much recognized morions worn by some Spanish officers were actually Italian. Again, returning to Munich, some were German. References: "Waffenkunde" Vol. VII, Wendelin Boeheim, 1890 , Leipzig "Cut and Thrust Weapons", Eduard Wagner, Prague, 1967 "Wallace Collection, European Arms & Armour", Sir James Mann, London, 1962 "Rapiers, Eric Valentine, Stackpole, 1968 "German Swords and Swordmakers" R Bezdek, 2000 "Spanish Arms and Armour" Albert Calvert, London, 1907 " Arms & Armour" Auguste Demmin, 1877, London Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th July 2014 at 07:06 PM.

15th July 2014, 07:00 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	In rechecking my references, and I wanted to add the note here so as not to be lost in my previous and huge text.....I found this in the same page in Boeheim, p.669: A marking of an S transposed over a T and surmounted by a G as to PEDRO HERNANDEZ of Toledo, 17th c.!!! There is also a small word la misma (?) in script. In the Wagner reference to PIETRO HERNANDEZ there is a stamped mark of a clover in a lozenge cartouche with an 'S' over it on the rapier previously mentioned (plate 6) with this name in inscription on blade. Similar clover devices used in Solingen (as well as Holland with the 'kleeblatt' =clover).... more support for the complex Solingen connections (a number of Solingen smiths went to Holland) as well as strong suggestion Pedro was indeed separate from the Hernandez lineage proper , and clearly powerfully represented in Solingen context.