Another restoration question - help me, experts!

David · 30th May 2014, 08:49 PM

First a disclaimer…i am, by no means, an "expert" in the staining of keris. I have done, perhaps, a dozen or so blades, usually to satisfactory results (though my standards and expectations may be low), though often enough had a result that just wasn't acceptable. I believe Alan will tell you it is not unusual to have to stain a blade more than once to get a reasonable result.
I have always used pineapple juice as a cleaning bath an i use that solution straight. So i have no experience with using diluted vinegar. One thing you might try, if you feel that your vinegar must be diluted, is to try using distilled water. It is possible that your water might have a high iron content or some other mineral that is creating such a quickly appearing rust.

Take a good look here to see if you are uploading images correctly.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

S.Workman · 30th May 2014, 09:52 PM

OK, my iPad was the problem. Here is an image of the keris, with rust on the ascendant. If I took time-lapse pics, the whole thing would be orangey red in 5 minutes, but a submersion for just a second in the vinegar eliminates the effect. I use spring water for the dilution, but even so that seems like a heck of a lot of iron oxide to have in water, at any rate you would think you could taste that much in a quart of water, and you can't.

David · 30th May 2014, 11:33 PM

I might still try distilled water or a full strength vinegar with no water added to it at all to see if it is still a problem.

S.Workman · 31st May 2014, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I might still try distilled water or a full strength vinegar with no water added to it at all to see if it is still a problem.

I think I still need to rinse the vinegar off before applying the warangan (I hope I am using this term correctly), and then I am back to square one. Is it possible that this keris is meant to be cleaned and oiled, with no treatment?

kai · 31st May 2014, 10:53 AM

Quote:

I think I still need to rinse the vinegar off before applying the warangan (I hope I am using this term correctly), and then I am back to square one. Is it possible that this keris is meant to be cleaned and oiled, with no treatment?

No, just go ahead! Much of this is trial and error until you've gained enough experience.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2014, 04:46 PM

To my eyes, this is an unusual and unexpected result from what has been described. Incidentally, I do dilute strong acids, such as sulphuric or hydrochloric, I do not dilute vinegar. An acid that you put your salad is never, ever going to hurt any ferric material.

I would suggest scrubbing the blade with lime juice and a tooth brush until the blade is clean of any reddish or brownish discolouration, then rinse and dry thoroughly. You can rinse and dry the blade between every few applications if the dirt builds up.

When the blade is clean, immediately brush with lime juice again, and then immediately begin the staining process.

The lime juice must be freshly squeezed tahitian limes, strained so there is no solid matter, and filtered through a piece of clean old linen --- I use a worn out old handerchief.

S.Workman · 31st May 2014, 06:00 PM

Got it! Alan has said before, I think in the "repatinating keris" instructions somewhere on this site, to neutralize the acid with baking soda. I had rinsed the blade under water, and seeing the immediate discoloration, had placed the blade back in the solution. Today, I scrubbed the blade down with a soda slurry, towel dried then blow dried it, and no rust appeared, although the color was dull compared to the colors presented when the blade is wet. I put the keris back into a straight vinegar bath, and I am hoping that tomorrow ends up fair, it is supposed to be warmish and mostly sunny. I have my yarn wrap ready for the tangs, and the small split on one hulu fixed so I may have something to show by tomorrow night. I will post photos, whatever the results.
Then I can show you all another keris I got.

Rick · 31st May 2014, 12:21 AM

I was expecting something quite a bit lighter in color from your description .

Is it warm enough where you are to stain right now ?
Which method are you planning to use ?

S.Workman · 31st May 2014, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I was expecting something quite a bit lighter in color from your description .

Is it warm enough where you are to stain right now ?
Which method are you planning to use ?

My picture is quite bad, I was hoping to convey the rust effect rather than the color (which would be altered by my treatment in any event). This weekend looks rainy where I am, but warm. If it looks like I will get a few hours window and the humidity blows over, I will try a stain, using the As2O3 method since I was able to get the required material. That won't happen if I don't get some good advice on how to proceed with the creeping rust issue, since I won't waste the material or time on something that is sure to fail, which I think would be the case trying to stain over this rust. We will have to see, if nothing else restoring these two keris has been an exercise in patience.

kai · 31st May 2014, 10:48 AM

Quote:

I might still try distilled water or a full strength vinegar with no water added to it at all to see if it is still a problem.

I'm with David. While I don't think that the water is the issue here, I strongly recommend to utilize DI water for diluting things - a gallon of pure water is cheap enough to have around at home. Spring and, even more so, well water can have really funny effects!

Regards,
Kai

30th May 2014, 09:52 PM	#2
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	OK, my iPad was the problem. Here is an image of the keris, with rust on the ascendant. If I took time-lapse pics, the whole thing would be orangey red in 5 minutes, but a submersion for just a second in the vinegar eliminates the effect. I use spring water for the dilution, but even so that seems like a heck of a lot of iron oxide to have in water, at any rate you would think you could taste that much in a quart of water, and you can't. Attached Images

30th May 2014, 08:49 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	First a disclaimer…i am, by no means, an "expert" in the staining of keris. I have done, perhaps, a dozen or so blades, usually to satisfactory results (though my standards and expectations may be low), though often enough had a result that just wasn't acceptable. I believe Alan will tell you it is not unusual to have to stain a blade more than once to get a reasonable result. I have always used pineapple juice as a cleaning bath an i use that solution straight. So i have no experience with using diluted vinegar. One thing you might try, if you feel that your vinegar must be diluted, is to try using distilled water. It is possible that your water might have a high iron content or some other mineral that is creating such a quickly appearing rust. Take a good look here to see if you are uploading images correctly. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

30th May 2014, 11:33 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	I might still try distilled water or a full strength vinegar with no water added to it at all to see if it is still a problem.

31st May 2014, 04:46 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	To my eyes, this is an unusual and unexpected result from what has been described. Incidentally, I do dilute strong acids, such as sulphuric or hydrochloric, I do not dilute vinegar. An acid that you put your salad is never, ever going to hurt any ferric material. I would suggest scrubbing the blade with lime juice and a tooth brush until the blade is clean of any reddish or brownish discolouration, then rinse and dry thoroughly. You can rinse and dry the blade between every few applications if the dirt builds up. When the blade is clean, immediately brush with lime juice again, and then immediately begin the staining process. The lime juice must be freshly squeezed tahitian limes, strained so there is no solid matter, and filtered through a piece of clean old linen --- I use a worn out old handerchief.

31st May 2014, 06:00 PM	#7
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Got it! Alan has said before, I think in the "repatinating keris" instructions somewhere on this site, to neutralize the acid with baking soda. I had rinsed the blade under water, and seeing the immediate discoloration, had placed the blade back in the solution. Today, I scrubbed the blade down with a soda slurry, towel dried then blow dried it, and no rust appeared, although the color was dull compared to the colors presented when the blade is wet. I put the keris back into a straight vinegar bath, and I am hoping that tomorrow ends up fair, it is supposed to be warmish and mostly sunny. I have my yarn wrap ready for the tangs, and the small split on one hulu fixed so I may have something to show by tomorrow night. I will post photos, whatever the results. Then I can show you all another keris I got.

31st May 2014, 12:21 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	I was expecting something quite a bit lighter in color from your description . Is it warm enough where you are to stain right now ? Which method are you planning to use ?