Turkish knife

erlikhan · 17th November 2005, 10:13 PM

Never have seen something like this. I dont have knowledge about bayonets enough to identify the models of the spare parts, it can be a trench knife but..even if I ignore the Chinese?? looking strange guard (it is circular,not?)which is totally unrelated to Turkish, the existence of 6 pointed star is a real problem. 6 p star has been used in a different form as something magical, but never as a national symbol as far as i know. The flag was 8 pointed in early times, and 5 pointed in the last centuries with nuances in the design. No Turk or any other Moslem around here would think of changing the star with a 6 pointed one when creating a hand made item in 19 or 20th centuries when this item was crafted. Too absurd. I think this item is not long ago created to sell or even if it is old, the crescent -star is mounted to give the item an identity and to increase price later by someone whose history knowledge is not perfect.

ariel · 18th November 2005, 01:06 AM

Erlikhan,
Very astute observation!
It looks to me that the blade is a tip of a saber (Bayonets are mostly straight, this blade is curved. Yes, I know some bayos are curved but I am talking probabilities here), while the scabbard and the handle were made out of the original scabbard.There are even traces of soldering on both. The decorations were added as an afterthought.
In short, somebody took an old and broken saber and made this dagger. May be trench art, may be bored home-grown Assadullah. The bottom line, this thing can do the job!

TVV · 18th November 2005, 01:57 AM

Sword is possible, but bayonet is not less likely. If you take a close look at the scabbard mouth of this piece, it looks like the brass mouth of a bayonet scabbard: you know, the leather bayonet scabbards with brass mountings. And if the trench art theory is correct, the rest could have been made from a brass shell. The crescent and the star appear inconsistent with the rest of the knife, and I think Erlikhan is right in believing that someone added them later in an attempt to enhance the value of the piece, which is an all too common phenomenon with unknowledgeable traders of militaria. Of course, we will never really know who made this knife and for what purpose, but to me at least it seems well suited to be a trench dagger.

not2sharp · 18th November 2005, 03:26 AM

That scabbard is very odd for a bayonet. Most bayonets scabbards have studs or strap bars by which they are attached to their frogs; but, this thing has a ring, which would lead me to believe that it was intended to be suspended as a sword rather then worn directly on the belt. More likely trench art made from an old sword and a shell casing.

n2s

Freddy · 18th November 2005, 01:46 PM

Thanks for all the input, guys

Erlikhan is right as to the six pointed star. In my hometown, there are many Turkish people and I never noticed that the star on their flag was five pointed. I examined the piece again and yes... the moon and star were added (soldered ?) to the grip.

I also looked at some books concerning bayonets and the closest thing I could find which had some resemblance to the point of my knife was the blade of a French 1842 sabre-bayonet. It could also be made from the French 1866 sabre-bayonet 'Chassepot' which had a similar blade.

Here are some additional pictures of my piece :

erlikhan · 18th November 2005, 02:05 PM

Yes.Only Moroccans have 6 pointed star, but not together with crescent. looks like a yataghan type bayonet edge to me as well. Could be a sharpened and rounded chassepot edge perhaps, or Enfield, German??
The strange hand guard..Perhaps silly but no possibility it was originally the part from a nice bronze lamp, which is always used on the lamp-ceiling joints to conceal the cables and trash??

(I dont know its technical name in English)

Freddy · 18th November 2005, 04:12 PM

Yeah, I know what you mean about the guard. Could perhaps even be part of a candlestick...perhaps older than the rest of the knife

18th November 2005, 01:46 PM	#5
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Thanks Thanks for all the input, guys Erlikhan is right as to the six pointed star. In my hometown, there are many Turkish people and I never noticed that the star on their flag was five pointed. I examined the piece again and yes... the moon and star were added (soldered ?) to the grip. I also looked at some books concerning bayonets and the closest thing I could find which had some resemblance to the point of my knife was the blade of a French 1842 sabre-bayonet. It could also be made from the French 1866 sabre-bayonet 'Chassepot' which had a similar blade. Here are some additional pictures of my piece :

17th November 2005, 10:13 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Never have seen something like this. I dont have knowledge about bayonets enough to identify the models of the spare parts, it can be a trench knife but..even if I ignore the Chinese?? looking strange guard (it is circular,not?)which is totally unrelated to Turkish, the existence of 6 pointed star is a real problem. 6 p star has been used in a different form as something magical, but never as a national symbol as far as i know. The flag was 8 pointed in early times, and 5 pointed in the last centuries with nuances in the design. No Turk or any other Moslem around here would think of changing the star with a 6 pointed one when creating a hand made item in 19 or 20th centuries when this item was crafted. Too absurd. I think this item is not long ago created to sell or even if it is old, the crescent -star is mounted to give the item an identity and to increase price later by someone whose history knowledge is not perfect.

18th November 2005, 01:06 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Erlikhan, Very astute observation! It looks to me that the blade is a tip of a saber (Bayonets are mostly straight, this blade is curved. Yes, I know some bayos are curved but I am talking probabilities here), while the scabbard and the handle were made out of the original scabbard.There are even traces of soldering on both. The decorations were added as an afterthought. In short, somebody took an old and broken saber and made this dagger. May be trench art, may be bored home-grown Assadullah. The bottom line, this thing can do the job!

18th November 2005, 01:57 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Sword is possible, but bayonet is not less likely. If you take a close look at the scabbard mouth of this piece, it looks like the brass mouth of a bayonet scabbard: you know, the leather bayonet scabbards with brass mountings. And if the trench art theory is correct, the rest could have been made from a brass shell. The crescent and the star appear inconsistent with the rest of the knife, and I think Erlikhan is right in believing that someone added them later in an attempt to enhance the value of the piece, which is an all too common phenomenon with unknowledgeable traders of militaria. Of course, we will never really know who made this knife and for what purpose, but to me at least it seems well suited to be a trench dagger.

18th November 2005, 03:26 AM	#4
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	That scabbard is very odd for a bayonet. Most bayonets scabbards have studs or strap bars by which they are attached to their frogs; but, this thing has a ring, which would lead me to believe that it was intended to be suspended as a sword rather then worn directly on the belt. More likely trench art made from an old sword and a shell casing. n2s

18th November 2005, 02:05 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Yes.Only Moroccans have 6 pointed star, but not together with crescent. looks like a yataghan type bayonet edge to me as well. Could be a sharpened and rounded chassepot edge perhaps, or Enfield, German?? The strange hand guard..Perhaps silly but no possibility it was originally the part from a nice bronze lamp, which is always used on the lamp-ceiling joints to conceal the cables and trash?? (I dont know its technical name in English)

18th November 2005, 04:12 PM	#7
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Yeah, I know what you mean about the guard. Could perhaps even be part of a candlestick...perhaps older than the rest of the knife