Words and bids

TVV · 17th November 2005, 09:43 PM

To get back to the discussion on hand, are there any differences between the Sinai Peninsula swords and the Slovenian ones? For example, I believe I can see a yelman on the sword from the book Miyamoto has posted, and I guess this is a feature not likely to appear on Bedouin blades? Furthermore, Artzi has stated in his site that the Bedouin blades are likely to exhibit multiple fullers, and I cannot see any fullers on the Slovenian sword, even though the picture quality is not the best. I am by far not an expert on neither the Bedouin, nor the Slovenian swords, but as there is a similarity in the hilt shape, I am just trying to figure out a way to safely distinguish between the two types.
Regards,
Teodor

Rivkin · 17th November 2005, 10:54 PM

As I said before I'm a newbie, but:
imho "slovenian" sword is in fact a rehilted kilij. As some kilij do, it has "heavy" end (I don't know how to say it - basically around the end the blade gets wider ?) and it has no fullers.

The bedoin sword in my opinion is more similar to heavy shashka blades - slighter, but more uniform curvature, gets thinner towards the end, multi-fullers.

ariel · 18th November 2005, 12:56 AM

As a matter of fact, one of my Beduins has a European blade with a single wide fuller. It was so polished and repolished that no markings are discernible any longer.
Artzi in his notes on the Beduin in his collection specifically states that they used whatever blades were available, and he saw even Kilij blades in typical Beduin furniture.
The Slovenian provenance is intriguing. However, was there a specific type of Slovenian (South European?) swords with this type of handle or is there only a single or very rare example? If the latter is true, we may be talking about an "accidental traveler" rather than a specific type.

TVV · 18th November 2005, 01:40 AM

Ariel's last question is great and I will be looking forward to its answer.
Overall, the sword types used in the Balkans in the period from the 16th to the beggining of the 19th century exhibit a huge variety due to the geographical situation and history of the region. Here are some swords in the collection of a friend, which have been found in Bulgaria, and yet in terms of their hilts (and blades) they are not so typical of the Balkans. There are accidental travellers, especially on the Balkans. Any comments on the swords I posted are welcome.

Andrew · 18th November 2005, 01:52 AM

Hi Teodor. Cool swords.

Quick question: are the bird-head pommels common? Characteristic of any particular culture/region?

TVV · 18th November 2005, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Hi Teodor. Cool swords.

Quick question: are the bird-head pommels common? Characteristic of any particular culture/region?

It could be, yet it is the only one I have seen on a sword of this type. I think there was a theory that the karabela pommel is actually a stylized eagle head, and eagles appear on the coats of arms of both Poland and Russia. Honestly, I really do not know what the significance of this pommel could be.

ariel · 18th November 2005, 04:41 AM

The second and the fourth in Teodore's exhitit are what's called typical Polish-Hungarian swords. The first and the third can be whatever you wish: Persian, Turkish, Polish, Hungarian, Croatian etc.
Turks significantly influenced Hungary and Poles had very close relations with the Persians in their mutual animosity toward the Turks. Complete geopolitical mess but a very fertile ground for the exchange of weapon types.

18th November 2005, 01:40 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Ariel's last question is great and I will be looking forward to its answer. Overall, the sword types used in the Balkans in the period from the 16th to the beggining of the 19th century exhibit a huge variety due to the geographical situation and history of the region. Here are some swords in the collection of a friend, which have been found in Bulgaria, and yet in terms of their hilts (and blades) they are not so typical of the Balkans. There are accidental travellers, especially on the Balkans. Any comments on the swords I posted are welcome. Attached Images

17th November 2005, 09:43 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	To get back to the discussion on hand, are there any differences between the Sinai Peninsula swords and the Slovenian ones? For example, I believe I can see a yelman on the sword from the book Miyamoto has posted, and I guess this is a feature not likely to appear on Bedouin blades? Furthermore, Artzi has stated in his site that the Bedouin blades are likely to exhibit multiple fullers, and I cannot see any fullers on the Slovenian sword, even though the picture quality is not the best. I am by far not an expert on neither the Bedouin, nor the Slovenian swords, but as there is a similarity in the hilt shape, I am just trying to figure out a way to safely distinguish between the two types. Regards, Teodor

17th November 2005, 10:54 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	As I said before I'm a newbie, but: imho "slovenian" sword is in fact a rehilted kilij. As some kilij do, it has "heavy" end (I don't know how to say it - basically around the end the blade gets wider ?) and it has no fullers. The bedoin sword in my opinion is more similar to heavy shashka blades - slighter, but more uniform curvature, gets thinner towards the end, multi-fullers.

18th November 2005, 12:56 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As a matter of fact, one of my Beduins has a European blade with a single wide fuller. It was so polished and repolished that no markings are discernible any longer. Artzi in his notes on the Beduin in his collection specifically states that they used whatever blades were available, and he saw even Kilij blades in typical Beduin furniture. The Slovenian provenance is intriguing. However, was there a specific type of Slovenian (South European?) swords with this type of handle or is there only a single or very rare example? If the latter is true, we may be talking about an "accidental traveler" rather than a specific type.

18th November 2005, 01:52 AM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Teodor. Cool swords. Quick question: are the bird-head pommels common? Characteristic of any particular culture/region?

18th November 2005, 04:41 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The second and the fourth in Teodore's exhitit are what's called typical Polish-Hungarian swords. The first and the third can be whatever you wish: Persian, Turkish, Polish, Hungarian, Croatian etc. Turks significantly influenced Hungary and Poles had very close relations with the Persians in their mutual animosity toward the Turks. Complete geopolitical mess but a very fertile ground for the exchange of weapon types.