Lionhilt Broadsword 17th Century?

[AHorsa]

I found this nice picture which i think describes why the Lion is standing on top of this Monsters. It might be the lion of holland overcoming the waterwolf. The picture is on a map from from 1640, so timely it also would fit. Source: rijnland.net
On the other hand there are similar exampls, which are not attributed to holland. Here is a picture of the Pallasch of Herzog Maximilian I of Bavaria (Source: bayerisches-nationalmuseum.de). It was made in Prague but looks (apart from all these jewels ;-) and the lion at the crossguard) quite similar to the first piece Jasper showed.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

On the other hand there are similar exampls, which are not attributed to holland. Here is a picture of the Pallasch of Herzog Maximilian I of Bavaria (Source: bayerisches-nationalmuseum.de). It was made in Prague but looks (apart from all these jewels ;-) and the lion at the crossguard) quite similar to the first piece Jasper showed.

yes that's right, lion head pommels occurred from the 16th century until the late 18th century in German-speaking countries. particularly on 17th century German and Swiss cavalry sabers.

best,

[AHorsa]

Thanks for those pictures Jasper. So more I compare those swiss/south-german sabres so more I wonder if there might be some connection to the first sword in your last post. It seems like that parry rod figure holds an eyelet in his hand. maybe for a small chain. Together with the style of the lion-pommel it equals much to this swiss sabre:
http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe195.html
On the other hand I don´t know any of these sabres showing one of these monsters or wolves. But the Bavarian pallash from my last post shows this. So these monsters might have been famous in this region. Have there been some connections between Netherlands and Swizerland at his period?

Best regards,
Andi

[cornelistromp]

examples from post 9 have one thing in common , which is the ring guard chiselled in the shape of a lion in deep relief , a real Dutch feature .

f/m a hilt has to be seen as a whole, not as separate elements .
Fe you can find the lionhead pommel on 18th century English hangers and also on 16thC 1+1/2 hand swiss sabers made ​​by Christoph 1 Standler in Germany/Munich.
Fantasy seamonsters heads on 16thC katzbalgers and on early 18thC French small swords .

The combination makes it interesting and helps an arm to be attributed to a particular area.

Remarkably, in the 17th century was the success of the Dutch world trade through the VOC and WIC and the Baltic Sea , and in between European countries, the great military successes against seemingly much stronger countries like Spain and England , the vast fleet - with 2,000 vessels greater than that of England and France together, the flourishing of arts and Dutch science. There was a large flow of goods and people between the countries , which has influenced who and who has influenced whom is hard to say .
.

but one developement can be claimed!
The chain between knuckle guard and pommel is probably a Dutch development from the third quarter of the 17th century. witness a hanger of a member of the city guard of Alkmaar painted by Rotius in 1650( btw a similar shell-guard as the sword in post 1) and the sword/hanger with agate grip worn by Cornelis Tromp (not me) . see attachement.

The development of the lion head pommel probably started around 1500 in Germany and fanned out across Europe in the subsequent 300 years.

best,

[AHorsa]

Great explanaition - thank you Jasper!

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... the sword/hanger with agate grip worn by Cornelis Tromp (not me) .

Best regards,
Andi

[M ELEY]

Jasper, with those pics, you have just proven one of most daunting questions I've struggled with for years!!! The starting period for when quillon and pommel chain attachments really started/ You've shown through this period artword that it did indeed exist before 1750-60, when many scholars claim it first appeared!

The reason this is monumental to me, being a naval/pirate/nautical collector is because of a certain crossguard found off the coast of North Carolina and attributed to Blackbeard/Queen Anne's Revenge. Jim posted a pic of it a while back and due to the quillon drilled hole, we believed it post-dated Blackbeard's ship, ca. 1718 and thus possibly proved that it wasn't really the QAR. With this new information, it does show that it could very well have been! Thank you for this valuable piece of information! I'm sure Jim will be thrilled as well!

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jasper, with those pics, you have just proven one of most daunting questions I've struggled with for years!!! The starting period for when quillon and pommel chain attachments really started/ You've shown through this period artword that it did indeed exist before 1750-60, when many scholars claim it first appeared!

The reason this is monumental to me, being a naval/pirate/nautical collector is because of a certain crossguard found off the coast of North Carolina and attributed to Blackbeard/Queen Anne's Revenge. Jim posted a pic of it a while back and due to the quillon drilled hole, we believed it post-dated Blackbeard's ship, ca. 1718 and thus possibly proved that it wasn't really the QAR. With this new information, it does show that it could very well have been! Thank you for this valuable piece of information! I'm sure Jim will be thrilled as well!

HI Mark,
yes it is often difficult to find hard evidence for a certain date of a weapon development, Art and historical important weapons can provide a watertight proof.
I am very glad that this information is useful for you

best,
Jasper