Cretan Revolution Weapons 18th century

[David]

Well this is just billiant! Why don't we just derail the discussion of these weapons altogether and step out on a long and drawn out debate on whether or not Greece is in Europe or not. I'm sure that is exactly what Jim had in mind when he questioned why this thread hasn't attracted more attention.
Factually, Greece is now and always has been in what is considered Europe. The Greeks invented the word. Their own geographers in ancient times placed them on the western side of the divide between Europe and Asia and so has every geographer since. We cannot, therefore, "reclassify" something as European that has ALWAYS been considered European. That is common sense.
As far as Greece's influences as a "building block of history and regional traditions", i would have to say that the Greek culture had far more influence on the West than the East. As your own Wikipedia posting point out it is considered the cradle of Western civilization (not Eastern), "the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, the Olympic Games, Western literature and historiography, political science, major scientific and mathematical principles, and Western drama, including both tragedy and comedy." In other words, it is the birthplace of European culture.
As to what is to be considered "ethnographic", lets look at the definition of the word. From Miriam Webster:
Ethnography: the study and systematic recording of human cultures; also : a descriptive work produced from such research.
Descriptive study of a particular human society. Contemporary ethnography is based almost entirely on fieldwork. The ethnographer lives among the people who are the subject of study for a year or more, learning the local language and participating in everyday life while striving to maintain a degree of objective detachment. He or she usually cultivates close relationships with “informants” who can provide specific information on aspects of cultural life. While detailed written notes are the mainstay of fieldwork, ethnographers may also use tape recorders, cameras, or video recorders. Contemporary ethnographies have both influenced and been influenced by literary theory.
Note there is no mention of geographical place in this definition. Ethnographic study is therefore not limited to Asian cultures as ethnographic studies take place in cultures from ALL parts of the world, including Europe itself. In fact, many ethnographic studies have been done of certain aspects of European cultures. A weapon is not, therefore, "ethnographic" because of where it is from. Common sense would dictate that this is a strategy of understanding that is of prime importance to our understanding of the nature of ethnographic weapons.
I would suggest Ibrahiim, that if you really wish to discuss or debate this question further (and it is indeed a fine question that is of great concern to all our discussions here) that you start a new thread entitled "What is the meaning Ethnographic study". I think it is really good for us to re-examine how and why we make certain categorical divisions in our discussion of certain weaponry. For now i would suggest that we get back to the real questions at hand here about Drac2k's weapons. Continuing this discussion here will only distract from the original purpose of this thread and have the opposite result that i think Jim was really hoping for when he questioned why no one was responding here.

[Jim McDougall]

Leaving the trainwreck behind, I started looking into more on the events which these fascinating weapons may have had a part in, the Cretan Rebellion of 1866-69, as the Cretans fought for independence against Ottoman rule.

Apparently one of the most significant events was the Seige of Arkadi, at this monastery, and the blue flag (attached) was flown there. The bravery and heroism of these patriots was amazing and it is in a sense chilling to view these wonderful examples Skarts was kind enough to share here.

In the original post he has noted that many of the gun components had been brought in from France. It seems I had read of similar instances with Greek forces during their war of independence in 1821, and how many of their firearms were from Europe, primarily France if I recall.

It is stated here that the decoration was completed in Crete, and I would like to look more into the motifs as well as comparison to other Greek weapons of the period. It is noted that the Cretan dagger was distinctly different than others from the Balkans, Greece and other regions, so it would be interesting to examine these differences.
I hope I can get to my copy of Elgoods book!!

What is intriguing here as well is the participation of France, and perhaps other European countries in helping Greece and Crete, countries regarded as at the peripheral boundaries of Europe proper, to fight against the Ottoman suzerains over them.

The map shows Greeks in blue and Turks in red.
The blue flag was flown at the monastery at Arkadi and the letters are for Crete, Enosis, freedom or death'.



Just crossed posts David.....agree...lets move on.

[David]

Well done Jim..please continue…

[spiral]

I think wherever posted, The lack of good photos & interaction was the problem.

Personaly I think the European forum offshoot, weakens the site & even hints at racialism.. Actually that may be wrong. A more accurate word would maybe be Colonalism A sort of "We bloody Europeans are not Ethnographic! Thats fuzzy wuzzys, Indian & Asian stuff" Type of attitude.

While Ethnographic is actually the scientific description of peoples and cultures with their customs, habits, tools, weapons etc. and there mutual differences. one has to remember Europeans are ethnographic as well! Including the English & maybe even new world Americans too! {All though I guess that get more complex....}

A break down of English, German, Portuguese, French, Japanese or Sudanese , zulu or any other sub division forum within ethnography I could understand But A "European" section?

I think Jims post & this thread illustrate the problem here most succinctly.

Were all people of race with are similarities & differences to all other races after all.

spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Actually all I said was I was surprised there was not any response to the posts, even after Skarts agreed to post more pictures, and I thought at least the ones already there were good enough at least to start a discussion .

I simply reopened the thread because I thought the topic was interesting and certainly did not want to start an international incident!!! Good grief!!!
This was about the forum heading, and entirely a geographic issue concerning these countries..thats all!!!
There is no reason to go off on all these tangents on race etc.!!!

Lets get back to the discussion on Cretan arms HERE, and focus on that topic....I went through chaos to excavate my books here in the bookmobile, and I don't want all that for nothing!

Any further posts I expect will be on these weapons or historical data around them........no more editorials!

Thanks guys

[Andrew]

This thread is surreal.

The European Armoury sub-forum was created for discussion of "History and development of European arms and armor, ancient through medieval and up to the close of the 19th century." It is not "racialist", "nationalistic", or "colonialistic". It was created for housekeeping purposes so the Forum staff could better manage moderation duties. The Keris Warung Kopi was created for the same reason. Nothing more.


Back on topic or this thread will be closed.

[Jim McDougall]

To continue a look into these two weapons, and I do hope Skarts will return..as I mentioned I retrieved two references which I hope can help here somewhat. The first is the book "The Arms of Greece: And Her Balkan Neighbors" by Dr Robert Elgood (2009), and the other is "The Cretan Dagger" by Nikos Vasilatos (1993), which is in Greek but with extracts in English.

These references are detailed and complex for someone such as myself entirely unfamiliar with the arms of these regions, but I sincerely wanted to offer at least some kind of helpful observations. In my first hours of going through mostly Elgood, which is a phenomenal work and characteristic of his thorough detail, I can offer a few notes.

The pistol resembles two seen in Elgood (#105,106) in its straighter profile of the butt, somewhat in the manner of the Greek and Albanian 'roka' (rat tailed pistols) but obviously far from defined similarity. In the notes toward the lock, I would believe it is more probably Brescian, as these seem to have been more prevalent in these regions in Greece, so Cretan circumstances likely to follow. In around 1806 the Brescian makers did follow French designs in degree, so that might lend to the French attribution.

I found it curious that this pistol was flintlock, but Elgood notes the very conservative nature of Balkan society toward arms and costume. Here I would note that most of the observations pertaining to Greek or Balkan arms in general might be construed as non applicable to Crete, however it seems the influences would have been well diffused despite some differences.
While percussion locks were known by around 1847, it seems that in many regions in the 19th century, flintlocks were still favored as they did not require the more stringent ammunition supplies that percussion did.


On the yataghan, it seems that I saw a note suggesting blades were narrower, but need to relocate. On the motif, the most notable to me is the distinct zoomorphic chape decoration which apparently represents a snake.
These seem prevalent on scabbards throughout Balkan regions and the symbolism appears to be apotropaic, to ward off the evil eye, and also represents justice . There is a saying or motto, 'na se phaei to phidi' (= may the snake get you) which might align with that concept.
In Montenegrin legends one subject was a great warrior called 'ljuta zmija'
(=fierce serpent) which also might be alluded to with these scabbard tip motifs.
* another interesting note on these lines is that Montenegrins, Albanians and Greeks typically referred collectively to firearms as 'snakes', but obviously this is not related directly to the scabbard motif on edged weapons.

These were turbulent times in these regions, and I think it is important for our review and discussion of these arms to remain objective, and to realize that in war and conflicts unpleasant circumstances prevailed. Our study is focused on the arms as historic objects only, and must be considered respectfully .

I do hope these few observations will at least give some perspective on this pistol and yataghan, and that other others will follow.