Two shamanic Tonkin knives

Sajen · 2nd May 2014, 03:20 PM

About the other knife on the left side he write:

The knife on the left in your photo is more problematic. I have never seen one like it, although I have seen (over the last 13 years) hundreds of the type on the right. I have also handled and acquired literally thousands of shamanic items, and I have never seen one like it. The shape of the antler (no V-shape) makes it less likely that it was functional. the leaf-shape of the blade is one often seen in shamanic wooden wands, so I thing that is consistent with a shamanic use. The raised decorations on the handle are very NOT tribal (at least from VN). Almost all here are incised, rather than raised. Also, the designs on the blade are not typical of what we see. So, here is my best guess, since I have never seen one like it:
More likely Cambodian or Thai (in Thailand), possibly Burma
most likely from one of the ethnic minority groups in the country of origin.
not likely to be functional

possibly shamanic, but might also be for presentation.
probably NOT a betel-cutting knife. They almost always have iron, scimitar-like blades and are smaller.

So this knife need still to be identified and I hope that we will be able to resolve this in the future!

Andrew · 3rd May 2014, 12:40 AM

Wow! Great information, thanks!

Sajen · 3rd May 2014, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Wow! Great information, thanks!

Yes, agree, I never have thought to get such good informations! My thank goes to Jim and Mark Rapoport!

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 24th November 2023, 06:17 AM

I am bringing this old thread back up because I recently purchased from an Australian dealer another example of these Muong hunting knives. Like examples shown below it has the typical stag pommel, silver hilt, and spatulate dark blade. Unfortunately the silver grip is broken across the middle, but the incised design is typical of work from northern Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, etc.

While the broad flat end of the knife is the main functional area (see below), this knife also has a sharpened edge with evidence of some loss of metal over time along that edge. The thickness of the blade is no more than 1.5 mm along its length and is somewhat flexible.

Age is hard to tell, but this one could easily be 19th C judging from the dark patina of the blade, the yellowing of the stag, and its general condition.

Dimensions:
Length of blade: 16 cm
Maximum width of blade: 3.8 cm
Silver hilt: 9.5 cm
Stag pommel: 10 cm
Overall length: 35.5 cm.

.

Sajen · 24th November 2023, 07:03 AM

Hello Ian,

A nice one, congrats! They seems to be somewhat rare, yours is the second example I've seen until now.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 24th November 2023, 06:28 PM

Hi Detlef,

Yes, they do seem to be uncommon. I've been looking for one for several years and found it online recently. I see that Mark Rapaport in his letter to you says that they used to be commonly found in the traditional tribal areas, but now much less so.

Regards, Ian

Battara · 27th November 2023, 12:24 AM

Great piece Ian. When I grow up I'll get one too...........I love religious and shamanic weapons!

24th November 2023, 06:17 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,530	Another "Muong" knife I am bringing this old thread back up because I recently purchased from an Australian dealer another example of these Muong hunting knives. Like examples shown below it has the typical stag pommel, silver hilt, and spatulate dark blade. Unfortunately the silver grip is broken across the middle, but the incised design is typical of work from northern Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, etc. While the broad flat end of the knife is the main functional area (see below), this knife also has a sharpened edge with evidence of some loss of metal over time along that edge. The thickness of the blade is no more than 1.5 mm along its length and is somewhat flexible. Age is hard to tell, but this one could easily be 19th C judging from the dark patina of the blade, the yellowing of the stag, and its general condition. Dimensions: Length of blade: 16 cm Maximum width of blade: 3.8 cm Silver hilt: 9.5 cm Stag pommel: 10 cm Overall length: 35.5 cm. . Attached Images

2nd May 2014, 03:20 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,424	About the other knife on the left side he write: The knife on the left in your photo is more problematic. I have never seen one like it, although I have seen (over the last 13 years) hundreds of the type on the right. I have also handled and acquired literally thousands of shamanic items, and I have never seen one like it. The shape of the antler (no V-shape) makes it less likely that it was functional. the leaf-shape of the blade is one often seen in shamanic wooden wands, so I thing that is consistent with a shamanic use. The raised decorations on the handle are very NOT tribal (at least from VN). Almost all here are incised, rather than raised. Also, the designs on the blade are not typical of what we see. So, here is my best guess, since I have never seen one like it: More likely Cambodian or Thai (in Thailand), possibly Burma most likely from one of the ethnic minority groups in the country of origin. not likely to be functional possibly shamanic, but might also be for presentation. probably NOT a betel-cutting knife. They almost always have iron, scimitar-like blades and are smaller. So this knife need still to be identified and I hope that we will be able to resolve this in the future!

3rd May 2014, 12:40 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Wow! Great information, thanks!

24th November 2023, 07:03 AM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,424	Hello Ian, A nice one, congrats! They seems to be somewhat rare, yours is the second example I've seen until now. Regards, Detlef

24th November 2023, 06:28 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,530	Hi Detlef, Yes, they do seem to be uncommon. I've been looking for one for several years and found it online recently. I see that Mark Rapaport in his letter to you says that they used to be commonly found in the traditional tribal areas, but now much less so. Regards, Ian

27th November 2023, 12:24 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,346	Great piece Ian. When I grow up I'll get one too...........I love religious and shamanic weapons!