Query on maker's mark

[Billman]

The handle appears to be in the shape of a lion, and is similar to that found on Bavarian swords 250 years later...

[fernando]

Just a curiosity that, when the rooster started to give its first steps into being a symbol for the French, in 1665, it appeared in medals chasing a lion, following the Roman legend (Plineus), in which the rooster crow chases the lion away. But this was turned into a two side joke by Luis XIV enemies (mainly the Dutch), who came out with a symbol in that, a (Batavian) lion chased a rooster away.
Maybe by 1702 the figure of a rooster was not 'mature' enough to be adopted as a means of French provenance by native artisans .

[Billman]

After the July Revolution of 1830 in France, Louis Philippe was crowned King of France. One of the things he did was replace the fleur de lis by a coq (rooster) as the emblem of the monarchy. Thus, for example, the hand guards on swords (e.g. the 1817 pattern épée) have the fleur de lis cast into (or soldered onto?) them pre 1833, and the coq post 1833 (although it looks more like an Imperial Eagle). Like the coq (if it is such??) on the V&A cochoir, it is facing to the left, although often the head is turned to the right.

The coq used by Coulaux after they took over the works in 1838 was similar, but facing to the right (the reverse of the coq(??) on the V&A tool).

I have contacted the textiles department of the museum of Glascow, who confirm the dress of the men and women etched into the design on the blade are consistent with those being worn c 1700, in particular the men's wigs and the woman's bonnet. This supports the date on the blade of 1702, and thus points to it being genuinely of this date, and not a later 'fake'...

The coq (??) thus indicates that although bearing German text, the blade well may have been made in France, probably in Alsace, but over 20 years before the Royal Arms Manufactury was established in Klingenthal.

[M ELEY]

I don't recognize the marks and don't wish to complicate the matter, but just to let you know that the lion hilt pic posted on top is not German, but Dutch, ca. 1680-1700, when the entire hilts were fashioned as lions. Is the hilt on yours presenting with just a lion-head pommel, or is the entire hilt in the form of a lion?
Any pics of the whole piece?

[Billman]

You can see the whole tool at http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/node/17380 - the brass lion handle (the complete lion, on its haunches, in the top - horizontal- image) is the one on the cochoir. If it is Dutch in origin, that would make the story even more complicated. I have never seen one of these tools from Holland, but people moved freely through northern France, Alsace, Germany, Belgium and Holland, especially when fleeing from religous persecution...

The swordsmiths of the Klingenthal Manufacture were recruited (poached??) from Solingen in Germany, so there is a good chance that smiths previously crossed borders (the people living in border regions were, and still are, usually bilingual, and often feel they do not belong to either country, but to the region)...

It is possible that the maker bought in a handle, or converted one from a Dutch sword, for this piece - normally cochoirs have a wooden handle, often with two ferrules... (see below)

Can you please post an image(s) of contemporay Dutch lion handles of a similar form???

P.S. I know very little of arms and weapons, I specialise in edged tools, so any help from the experts in this field/on this forum will be greatly appreciated.

[M ELEY]

Sorry, I'm not savvy enough to attach threads, so I brought it up again. It's the "old Dutch hanger' thread presently presented. The Dutch name for these swords, with their entire hilt being a crouching lion, is unpronouncable by me!! The item you posted seemed to have used the same type grip from one of these swords. Tehn again, perhaps the German creator just liked the form and used it from existing patterns-

[Billman]

This one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=dutch+hanger

It looks like the handle shown on the original (top) image is in two parts - the hilt and the cross part.. Note the arms appear in s different position, but the general appearance is very similar...