Incendiary device? Grenade? Or what?

Marcus den toom · 18th March 2014, 07:49 PM

Well Nando, when you have some spare time...

But untill than, something i believe to be a grenade thrower or a very cruel trick on a homeless person.
http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/med...urrentpage=195

Matchlock · 18th March 2014, 08:42 PM

Excellent find, Marcus

,

This is from the well known book by Franz Helm, Von den probierten Künsten (on well-tried arts), 1535.

It does show a device to hurl a grenade, and the attached pages are very notable for depicting related stuff that is of interest for our thread!

Best,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 18th March 2014, 09:02 PM

Thank you Michl,

I was already pondering about the possible ways to hurl these grenades around, but i had no clue about relevant sources until i found this manuscript.

The 'red' grenade on the second image of your above post, is this some sort of rope with a grenade at the end which was hurled trough the air like a scottish highland game (sorry for the weird phrasing).

and the grenades at the bottom of the same picture, do they have secondary charges inside metal containers/explosives (there seems to be a little hole in each of the grey tubes).

Best,
Marcus

Matchlock · 18th March 2014, 09:11 PM

Hi Marcus,

The group of hardcore reenactors at the Veste Coburg, especially Armin König, knows a whole lot about these fireworks; the museum also holds some highly interesting original items. To me, these matters are a bit aside, just too far out of my trodden path.

You should contact the Veste Coburg, they certainly have good material.

Best,
m

M ELEY · 19th March 2014, 02:58 AM

Thank you, gentlemen, for remarking on this piece. Yes, Michael, you really did come through for me and I truly value your knowledge on these. I read your other thread from end to end, but didn't post this there until I knew it might be the real deal. I do hope the scholar you mentioned might have something to add as well.

Fernando- But of course I would need one of these if I am to take any ships in the Indies! Cap'n Mark

Nice find on the grenade launcher, Marcus! I've always been fascinated by the flintlock musket types with widened barrel.

Fernando- Small!? Are we comparing sizes here!?

The interesting thing about mine is that it is completely hollow, not like the thicker examples such as the size-ways viewed illustration of a small pocket amid the thick clay 'walls'. Although not eggshell thin, this piece seems made to shatter on impact. Although small, it would have held a similar amount of powder due to the open cavity. Perhaps it was only used to ignite flammable textiles? Distract an opponent with a small flash of powder? In Gilkerson, he mentions stink pots and smoke pots being made of breakable pottery, but unfortunately doesn't show any pics of such items. To date, I have only seen one verified stink pot from an Elizabethan wreck, complete with barnacles. It looked basically like a clay jar with small ahndles on either side, but was flat bottomed. I've seen the early stink pots and clay incendiaries from the Middle East dating to the Crusades, but they were also larger affairs of mostly gray clay.

Marcus den toom · 19th March 2014, 08:25 AM

Hi Michael,

Thank you, i will investigate

M Eley, could the grenade of yours be some sort of post medievalish molotov cocktail? In Michael's thread about incendiaries, there is also a part about incendiary quoites which probably would have splashed around when lit and cause flesh melting burns

Though the quoites are solid, i am sure that there is also a liquid exuivalent (maybe just oil/tar with sulphur)? pure guess work of course

M ELEY · 19th March 2014, 09:02 AM

Hello Marcus,
I imagine that is very possible. In naval warefare, there was Greek fire that was contained in vessels. In maritime/pirate tradition, there were stink pots, which contained foul-smelling weeds, animal dung, sulfur, etc, and made to shatter and spray on impact! (lovely to get hit with the rank stuff-

).
I'm hoping that perhaps the material mine is made from might shed some light on what nationality, era, or area of design. I know it's crazy, but the reason I asked about Spanish colonials and if they had grenadoes is because the pottery material mine is made from reminds me of Pueblo Indian pottery- that black, brittle clay from the American Southwest. Anyway, jst thinking aloud!

fernando · 19th March 2014, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Fernando- Small!? Are we comparing sizes here!?

...

Oh Mark, old chap !
I am beyond compare

M ELEY · 21st March 2014, 02:34 AM

Yes you are, Nando! Yes, you are!

I'm very psyched to get a bit of good news for a change (I had a particularly bad day otherwise!). In Michael's newest thread in incendiary arrows, he posted pics of Italian glass/clay grenades that are nearly spot-on for mine! Not to say mine is Italian, but I think that it cinches it that it is indeed a bombard/incendiary. Typically, when I present a 'mystery piece', it usually ends up being something mundane (As in 'Hey, I just liked up a cool Malabar Moplah knife!!! and then, it's -'Sorry, old chap, that's a Brazilian pizza cutter!

). Nice to have found something for a change!!

18th March 2014, 08:42 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Excellent find, Marcus , This is from the well known book by Franz Helm, Von den probierten Künsten (on well-tried arts), 1535. It does show a device to hurl a grenade, and the attached pages are very notable for depicting related stuff that is of interest for our thread! Best, Michael Attached Images

21st March 2014, 02:34 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Yes you are, Nando! Yes, you are! I'm very psyched to get a bit of good news for a change (I had a particularly bad day otherwise!). In Michael's newest thread in incendiary arrows, he posted pics of Italian glass/clay grenades that are nearly spot-on for mine! Not to say mine is Italian, but I think that it cinches it that it is indeed a bombard/incendiary. Typically, when I present a 'mystery piece', it usually ends up being something mundane (As in 'Hey, I just liked up a cool Malabar Moplah knife!!! and then, it's -'Sorry, old chap, that's a Brazilian pizza cutter! ). Nice to have found something for a change!! Last edited by M ELEY; 21st March 2014 at 08:40 AM.

18th March 2014, 07:49 PM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Well Nando, when you have some spare time... But untill than, something i believe to be a grenade thrower or a very cruel trick on a homeless person. http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/med...urrentpage=195

18th March 2014, 09:02 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Thank you Michl, I was already pondering about the possible ways to hurl these grenades around, but i had no clue about relevant sources until i found this manuscript. The 'red' grenade on the second image of your above post, is this some sort of rope with a grenade at the end which was hurled trough the air like a scottish highland game (sorry for the weird phrasing). and the grenades at the bottom of the same picture, do they have secondary charges inside metal containers/explosives (there seems to be a little hole in each of the grey tubes). Best, Marcus

18th March 2014, 09:11 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, The group of hardcore reenactors at the Veste Coburg, especially Armin König, knows a whole lot about these fireworks; the museum also holds some highly interesting original items. To me, these matters are a bit aside, just too far out of my trodden path. You should contact the Veste Coburg, they certainly have good material. Best, m

19th March 2014, 02:58 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Thank you, gentlemen, for remarking on this piece. Yes, Michael, you really did come through for me and I truly value your knowledge on these. I read your other thread from end to end, but didn't post this there until I knew it might be the real deal. I do hope the scholar you mentioned might have something to add as well. Fernando- But of course I would need one of these if I am to take any ships in the Indies! Cap'n Mark Nice find on the grenade launcher, Marcus! I've always been fascinated by the flintlock musket types with widened barrel. Fernando- Small!? Are we comparing sizes here!? The interesting thing about mine is that it is completely hollow, not like the thicker examples such as the size-ways viewed illustration of a small pocket amid the thick clay 'walls'. Although not eggshell thin, this piece seems made to shatter on impact. Although small, it would have held a similar amount of powder due to the open cavity. Perhaps it was only used to ignite flammable textiles? Distract an opponent with a small flash of powder? In Gilkerson, he mentions stink pots and smoke pots being made of breakable pottery, but unfortunately doesn't show any pics of such items. To date, I have only seen one verified stink pot from an Elizabethan wreck, complete with barnacles. It looked basically like a clay jar with small ahndles on either side, but was flat bottomed. I've seen the early stink pots and clay incendiaries from the Middle East dating to the Crusades, but they were also larger affairs of mostly gray clay.

19th March 2014, 08:25 AM	#6
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Hi Michael, Thank you, i will investigate M Eley, could the grenade of yours be some sort of post medievalish molotov cocktail? In Michael's thread about incendiaries, there is also a part about incendiary quoites which probably would have splashed around when lit and cause flesh melting burns Though the quoites are solid, i am sure that there is also a liquid exuivalent (maybe just oil/tar with sulphur)? pure guess work of course

19th March 2014, 09:02 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Hello Marcus, I imagine that is very possible. In naval warefare, there was Greek fire that was contained in vessels. In maritime/pirate tradition, there were stink pots, which contained foul-smelling weeds, animal dung, sulfur, etc, and made to shatter and spray on impact! (lovely to get hit with the rank stuff- ). I'm hoping that perhaps the material mine is made from might shed some light on what nationality, era, or area of design. I know it's crazy, but the reason I asked about Spanish colonials and if they had grenadoes is because the pottery material mine is made from reminds me of Pueblo Indian pottery- that black, brittle clay from the American Southwest. Anyway, jst thinking aloud!