Incendiary device? Grenade? Or what?

Marcus den toom · 18th March 2014, 03:34 PM

hahah, maybe we can team up Nando and go dig for our own grenades

fernando · 18th March 2014, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

hahah, maybe we can team up Nando and go dig for our own grenades

Don't tease me; i may take it seriously

Marcus den toom · 18th March 2014, 07:49 PM

Well Nando, when you have some spare time...

But untill than, something i believe to be a grenade thrower or a very cruel trick on a homeless person.
http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/med...urrentpage=195

Matchlock · 18th March 2014, 08:42 PM

Excellent find, Marcus

,

This is from the well known book by Franz Helm, Von den probierten Künsten (on well-tried arts), 1535.

It does show a device to hurl a grenade, and the attached pages are very notable for depicting related stuff that is of interest for our thread!

Best,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 18th March 2014, 09:02 PM

Thank you Michl,

I was already pondering about the possible ways to hurl these grenades around, but i had no clue about relevant sources until i found this manuscript.

The 'red' grenade on the second image of your above post, is this some sort of rope with a grenade at the end which was hurled trough the air like a scottish highland game (sorry for the weird phrasing).

and the grenades at the bottom of the same picture, do they have secondary charges inside metal containers/explosives (there seems to be a little hole in each of the grey tubes).

Best,
Marcus

Matchlock · 18th March 2014, 09:11 PM

Hi Marcus,

The group of hardcore reenactors at the Veste Coburg, especially Armin König, knows a whole lot about these fireworks; the museum also holds some highly interesting original items. To me, these matters are a bit aside, just too far out of my trodden path.

You should contact the Veste Coburg, they certainly have good material.

Best,
m

M ELEY · 19th March 2014, 02:58 AM

Thank you, gentlemen, for remarking on this piece. Yes, Michael, you really did come through for me and I truly value your knowledge on these. I read your other thread from end to end, but didn't post this there until I knew it might be the real deal. I do hope the scholar you mentioned might have something to add as well.

Fernando- But of course I would need one of these if I am to take any ships in the Indies! Cap'n Mark

Nice find on the grenade launcher, Marcus! I've always been fascinated by the flintlock musket types with widened barrel.

Fernando- Small!? Are we comparing sizes here!?

The interesting thing about mine is that it is completely hollow, not like the thicker examples such as the size-ways viewed illustration of a small pocket amid the thick clay 'walls'. Although not eggshell thin, this piece seems made to shatter on impact. Although small, it would have held a similar amount of powder due to the open cavity. Perhaps it was only used to ignite flammable textiles? Distract an opponent with a small flash of powder? In Gilkerson, he mentions stink pots and smoke pots being made of breakable pottery, but unfortunately doesn't show any pics of such items. To date, I have only seen one verified stink pot from an Elizabethan wreck, complete with barnacles. It looked basically like a clay jar with small ahndles on either side, but was flat bottomed. I've seen the early stink pots and clay incendiaries from the Middle East dating to the Crusades, but they were also larger affairs of mostly gray clay.

18th March 2014, 08:42 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Excellent find, Marcus , This is from the well known book by Franz Helm, Von den probierten Künsten (on well-tried arts), 1535. It does show a device to hurl a grenade, and the attached pages are very notable for depicting related stuff that is of interest for our thread! Best, Michael Attached Images

18th March 2014, 03:34 PM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	hahah, maybe we can team up Nando and go dig for our own grenades

18th March 2014, 07:49 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Well Nando, when you have some spare time... But untill than, something i believe to be a grenade thrower or a very cruel trick on a homeless person. http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/med...urrentpage=195

18th March 2014, 09:02 PM	#5
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Thank you Michl, I was already pondering about the possible ways to hurl these grenades around, but i had no clue about relevant sources until i found this manuscript. The 'red' grenade on the second image of your above post, is this some sort of rope with a grenade at the end which was hurled trough the air like a scottish highland game (sorry for the weird phrasing). and the grenades at the bottom of the same picture, do they have secondary charges inside metal containers/explosives (there seems to be a little hole in each of the grey tubes). Best, Marcus

18th March 2014, 09:11 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, The group of hardcore reenactors at the Veste Coburg, especially Armin König, knows a whole lot about these fireworks; the museum also holds some highly interesting original items. To me, these matters are a bit aside, just too far out of my trodden path. You should contact the Veste Coburg, they certainly have good material. Best, m

19th March 2014, 02:58 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Thank you, gentlemen, for remarking on this piece. Yes, Michael, you really did come through for me and I truly value your knowledge on these. I read your other thread from end to end, but didn't post this there until I knew it might be the real deal. I do hope the scholar you mentioned might have something to add as well. Fernando- But of course I would need one of these if I am to take any ships in the Indies! Cap'n Mark Nice find on the grenade launcher, Marcus! I've always been fascinated by the flintlock musket types with widened barrel. Fernando- Small!? Are we comparing sizes here!? The interesting thing about mine is that it is completely hollow, not like the thicker examples such as the size-ways viewed illustration of a small pocket amid the thick clay 'walls'. Although not eggshell thin, this piece seems made to shatter on impact. Although small, it would have held a similar amount of powder due to the open cavity. Perhaps it was only used to ignite flammable textiles? Distract an opponent with a small flash of powder? In Gilkerson, he mentions stink pots and smoke pots being made of breakable pottery, but unfortunately doesn't show any pics of such items. To date, I have only seen one verified stink pot from an Elizabethan wreck, complete with barnacles. It looked basically like a clay jar with small ahndles on either side, but was flat bottomed. I've seen the early stink pots and clay incendiaries from the Middle East dating to the Crusades, but they were also larger affairs of mostly gray clay.