The Sinhalese Kastane: Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism

[VANDOO]

FOR INFLUENCES ON A CULTURE ONE NEED ONLY LOOK AT ITS RULERS. WHO WERE THEIR ALLIES, WHO WERE THEIR ENEMYS AND WHO DID THEY TRADE WITH. THE EARLIEST INFLUENCES ARE USUALLY BASED ON ONE RULER EITHER FRIEND OR ENEMY HAVING SOMETHING THE OTHER DOES NOT HAVE AND THE SECOND RULER TRYING TO MATCH THAT AND TOP IT. FOR INSTANCE IF RULER #1 HAS A ELEPHANT TO RIDE RULER #2 MUST GET A BIGGER AND BETTER ONE AND PERHAPS SEVERAL MORE. THE ARMS RACE IS NOT SOMETHING NEW
THE EARLY CONTACTS WERE NO DOUBT WITH SOUTHERN INDIA BECAUSE OF PROXIMITY AND THE CULTURES DID HAVE A LOT IN COMMON AND LIKELY HAD CULTURAL CONNECTIONS FAR IN THE PAST. SO IF THE SWORDS OF OTHERS ARE MORE DECORATIVE OR LARGER ONE MUST MATCH AND EXCEED THAT OF THE COMPETICIAN. WAR, SHOWING OFF AND FASHON ALL ACCELERATE INOVATION AND CHANGES IN A SOCIETY. SO I VOTE FOR SOUTHERN INDIA AS THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Kastane story may continue ad infinitum to develop and based on the excellent material unearthed by Forum so far.. For me, however, the culminating note is unveiled by Wikepedia the famous on line encyclopedia which states ~

The Kastane.

Quote"The Kastane is a short traditional ceremonial/decorative single-edged sword of Sri Lanka. Kastanes often have elaborate hilts, especially shaped and described as a rich mythical style inherited from Buddhism and Hinduism and in blending a variety of Deities including Makara, Lions, Kirtimukha, Serapendiya, Nagas, crocodile/human monsters and other dragon and gargoyle like effigies. Some are emitted onto the hand guard and cross guard with Vajra style pseudo-quillons whose finials are also decorated by minor monsters and a rain-guard decorated by the Makara or Serapendiya Peacock tail or fish scales which occasionally flows over and onto the blade at the throat. The Scabbard is occasionally seen with a miniature beasts head at the Chape also emitting a Deity or cloud pattern. Sometimes a small human face decorates the hand-guard which is a half human/half crocodile monster.

The main aspect of Kastane Hilts shows the central Deity accompanied by supporting minor Deity forms and the peculiar guard arrangement incorporating Buddhist style Vajra quillons, cross and hand guards and decorated handguard with further embelishment often spilling over onto the blades throat. In approaching a description authors should observe each Kastane separately since no two are identical and the main Hilt theme thus could be either of the variant Deities Lion or Makara/ Serapendiya etc. and since artist and artisan may well have applied a broad ranging interpretation of the form.

In 1807 it is recorded that the sword was an indicator of Official Rank so that the more senior persons would wear a more lavishly adorned weapon etc...and that this was also the intent though perhaps to a lesser degree in the Portuguese and Dutch periods.

They may first have arisen in the Kandyan Kingdom (15/16th century ?), perhaps inspired by European swords brought by the Portuguese period in Ceylon or in fact imported by the great Sri Lankan sea traders ... The Moors....The basic form being lavishly adorned so much so that it is almost impossible to designate a base pattern though North Italian or Venetian seems plausible. The hilt resembles South Indian weapon designs. The blade comes in a variety of sizes and it can be either straight or slightly curved. They are usually single-edged and most frequently are made in Europe(Solingen). None of the blades bear either Portuguese marks or English East India Company trademarks (EIC), however, there are many examples of Dutch influence with blades marked VOC. The single part of the sword that shares the similar characteristics is the hilt. It has two or four quillons. In the 4-quillon version the smaller two quillons are swept downwards toward the tip of the blade. In fact it is arguable if these are Quillons since they are mirror images of the Vajra projections on the Buddhist religious axe and perhaps serve no defensive purpose.

The pommel and the quillons are very beautiful as each of them ends with a carved Deity's head. The hilts are often encrusted with gemstones as in the eyes of Ruby stones and inlaid with silver or made entirely of silver or gold. The scabbards of the Kastane swords are made of wood or rhino horn and are decorated with brass, silver and/or gold. It is a testament to the skill of the traditional craftsmen operating in Sri Lankas ancient Royal Sword Workshops".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[napoleon]

salaams ibrahiim,firstly im not intent on telling people how they should research,not at all ,what i was trying to establish,was known provenanced items,if enough examples can be gathered,might begin to show a broad frame work,starting for the sake of arguement with known portugese examples of the period,already been said i know,but does anyone have any? also yes point taken jim regarding debate/discusion stand corrected thank you,ibrahiim you refer to the examples plucked at random not at all just the only two examples i could find that stood a chance, speaking demonstrably,but as jim pointed out could be earlier(although not later) so could still be used in a broader framework, ibrahiim i do see a gap in the study its called typological chronology ,however bear in mind i am a relative novice in the subject of these beautifull swords,but one thought i had was the gemstones used,certain cultures favour different gems,a possible pointer?although i still feel more examples are needed,and in order for any of us to learn more more images,another thought has anyone explored the archeological record of sri lanka for swords,battle site finds? regards for now

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Napoleon,
Nicely stated, and I would like to note that my intention was not as much correction as clarification, and understand your notes toward research were more to your placement in coming into the discussion. While you have noted you are relatively new to the research on these weapons, I commend you for your enthusiastic participation and would point out that here we are all students on arms study in varying levels and degrees, but all working toward the same goals, learning together.

You are asking well placed questions, some which have indeed been somewhat travelled in other discussions, and some which have not. Your note on gems is interesting, though I am not certain that this complex aspect of decoration and often talismanic properties would be pertinent to our objectives here on the kasthane.

Good question on the archaeological aspects, and indeed there are numerous studies on Sri Lankan sites as well as the iconographic sources.
Deraniyagala , 1942, p.111) notes, "...the earliest swords appear to have been straight, leaf shaped and double edged, resembling bronze age weapons. Their shape suggests they were mainly offensive. A subsequent development was the wavy blade, and ultimately the curved scimitar type which increased enormously the power of a slashing cut, but sacrificed efficiency in thrusting or parrying (footnote: the scimitar type is probably of Arab origin). "
It is further noted that the early swords depicted on the Tivunka Patimaghara (misnamed Demala Malia Sigiriya) at Polonnaruva are of the leaf pattern and that others from Sigiyira in the Columbo Museum and of the 5th century are single edged and long, straight and double edged. Other excavations of 12th century site at Polonnoruva revealed long straight single edged blades with obliquely truncate point.

It is noted that these are some of the types depicted on frescoes and paintings up to the 18th century "..when the curved, scimitar shape with the lions head comes into fashion".

These interesting entries indicate of course that the early swords of Sri Lanka over a very long time were functional and decoratively austere until relatively recent times. Clearly the 18th century date for the lion head hilts is not quite correct as we are already aware of earlier examples, however I believe the author is referring to the ceremonial sword of rank rather than likely earlier forms bearing some degree of traditional iconography.

Typological chronology is of course an ideal goal, but one which is particularly elusive in the study of most histories of ethnographic forms as reliably provenanced examples are rarely available. Even iconographic sources are sometimes unreliable as artists often tended to be anachronistic in their work as they depicted events of earlier times. As you engage further in this and other studies of these types of weapons it is interesting to see how these kinds of discussions do benefit comprehensive knowledge by compiling data . In these cases, seen throughout the archives here many impressive results have been accomplished.

While you may be a newcomer Napoleon, you ask great questions and follow the course, and its great to have you with us on the adventure!

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by napoleon

salaams ibrahiim,firstly im not intent on telling people how they should research,not at all ,what i was trying to establish,was known provenanced items,if enough examples can be gathered,might begin to show a broad frame work,starting for the sake of arguement with known portugese examples of the period,already been said i know,but does anyone have any? also yes point taken jim regarding debate/discusion stand corrected thank you,ibrahiim you refer to the examples plucked at random not at all just the only two examples i could find that stood a chance, speaking demonstrably,but as jim pointed out could be earlier(although not later) so could still be used in a broader framework, ibrahiim i do see a gap in the study its called typological chronology ,however bear in mind i am a relative novice in the subject of these beautifull swords,but one thought i had was the gemstones used,certain cultures favour different gems,a possible pointer?although i still feel more examples are needed,and in order for any of us to learn more more images,another thought has anyone explored the archeological record of sri lanka for swords,battle site finds? regards for now

Salaams napoleon. As you rightly point out we have very little to go on... Early examples are few 'n far between and this is illustrated by the need to look at even the most extreme cases such as artwork on the Popham Armour (to my mind the only artwork showing the Kastane on European armour) and a vague but fascinating early weapon now in the Sendai Museum in Japan.

Where we can... I think broad logic is allowed e.g. an eye to the European influence and since it is a weapon just slightly removed from the Arabian sphere...a clue as to how it may have arrived in basic form with the Moors...and of course their Arabian and African (and other regional) contacts. Knowing a lot more about the Royal workshops and the religious structure and the way people lived in the early days allows some balanced supposition...Where these nebulous ideas are not carved in stone it can be interesting to see where these ideas lead...though, a good detective will only have these penciled in the margin until proof positive can be made.

I was pleased to see you wheel out the big guns: Typological Chronology but that depends on examinig the early items, simply not available... The subject of digs is interesting ... but as you may be aware there are certain sensitivities in this regard and anyway you will be aware of cultural problems where Buddhist/ Hindu countries are very much not obliged to excavate and for religious reasons etc...The archeological ministry in Tibet for example is a very small organism... in fact it doesn't exist! and though I am not saying archeology is non existant in Sri Lanka I make the point from the cultural understanding generally... and of course you will be aware of the delicate nature of digs not unrelated to recent internal strife in that country but which is politically ringfenced.

What you have outlined is in fact very true... that unless a researcher is in country how difficult it is (but not impossible) to unearth the facts. When we started we had so little to go on... Now the library contains masses of detail never before viewed.

I think the study of gemstones is an excellent idea for you to undertake regarding Kastane ... another which I disguarded was the detail contained in ancient poetry which could yeild results.

One other field that looked promising was ancient martial arts weapons but I was unable to get sufficient detail as persuing that back 500 years and beyond proved impossible .. We know that the national martial art system was made illegal by colonial English powers punishable by being shot in the knees..Permanently crippling the individuals...The martial arts weaponry pre Portuguese (Pre 1505) may well have contained Kastane but absolute proof would be needed. Naturally that would be more or less game set and match regarding the time frame but I couldn't get much further back than about 1800 in this regard.

The VOC system is being viewed very successfully in another thread effectively setting down a thorough compendium of details on the entire Dutch period ...

Overall I think the rolling result... (because it never stops)... is excellent, though, we should never expect to fully hit the check-mate button... Total understanding may never be complete but I mean why should it?...since this is such a non worldly item drenched in mythology, religions, sliced with foreign powers interference and tainted in not a little majic ... not least in it's name "Kastane"...


Thank you for your post...Typological Chronology ! Bring it on !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

What you have outlined is in fact very true... that unless a researcher is in country how difficult it is (but not impossible) to unearth the facts. When we started we had so little to go on... Now the library contains masses of detail never before viewed.

Interesting that you should say this Ibrahiim, because when we actually had a native Sri Lankan that was steeped in the culture and history of ancient Sri Lankan weaponry and actually had his feet on the ground in that country you did nothing but argue his very informative posts until he threw up his hands and left the conversation. Fortunately, the "Library" still contains those very informative posts.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David

...because when we actually had a native Sri Lankan that was steeped in the culture and history of ancient Sri Lankan weaponry and actually had his feet on the ground in that country you did nothing but argue his very informative posts until he threw up his hands and left the conversation. Fortunately, the "Library" still contains those very informative posts....Fortunately, the "Library" still contains those very informative posts. :)

... Which certainly have a value ratio far greater than countless perorations which, although containing some peripheral (but not intrinsic) info, make us ponder on their immense space occupied in the archives versus their juice, after squeezing them.
It is obvious that despite Jim’s industrious initiative to transfer this theme to a new thread under a multiple (triple) range of attributions, the nuclear point remains the same: the origin, date and outer influences in the Kastane. However it is not the hammering on the same nail head, time and time without count, that will bring light to the subject. No one forgets that certain approaches were repeated a zillion times … sometimes with the very same wording.
Resuming that, taking in consideration the recurrent (massacred) pre and post Portuguese ‘key’ to the matter ...
It can not be questioned that the Kastane was born in Ceylon … and not result of a ‘joint venture’.
The probabilities that it had western influences along time, namely Portuguese, it could only be in the hilt, namely the lower recurved quillons... the ricasso a giveaway.
The blade in itself would never be Portuguese, simply because they were not blade makers. Actually the Kastane blades seen out there are so varied that i have already seen one made in brass.
Assuming that Portuguese sword designs were common to other Peoples … Spanish, Venetians and so, we may view these probable influences, for the matter, as being Portuguese, because they were indeed the first to actually reside and mix cultures with the locals.
But obviously the admissible influence of Portuguese, for one, is a hypothesis that would be easily knocked down by evidential appearance of the missing link: example/s of Kastane prior to this period ... no matter how different or of how many different forms they timely were.
Based on this eternal fait divers and talking about (Portuguese) influences, i feel entitled to upload here a hybrid that i have pictured in one of my library books, which belongs in the collection of its author, titled HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, by Rainer Daehnhardt, whom owns one of the largest collections of weapons and documentation covering, among other, the Portuguese discoveries period.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you so much for adding this most pertinent example which reflects the kind of diffusion seen with these clearly Sinhalese influenced hilts, and most important showing the Portuguese perspective.
Thank you as well for adding your perspective on the 'origins of the kasthane dilemma', which seems of course to correspond pretty much with the views expressed already.

Actually the reason I started this thread was because of the outcry on the other thread concerning the emphasis on the kasthane in a thread whose title indicated Sinhalese swords, including the kasthane. There it was claimed that the thread was being derailed by emphasis on the kasthane, remarkable since it followed the topic in the title. Just the same, I thought a more deliberately titled thread would allow focused discussion on the kastane without such consternation.

Now we have a derailment toward the perils and worth of the Wikipedia online source! It seems to me that any source of material used in research is useful but with the caveat that the material must be considered along with corroborating material as well.
It seems that here the issue has become that the source material cited by Ibrahiim from Wikipedia is considered questionably because he has contributed to its content. I will say here that I often use Wikipedia to augment and add to data I use to write along with my own notes and other resources. In most cases it has proven quite reliable although in many cases politically charged material is somewhat questionable.

It should probably have been reiterated that he had added to the Wikipedia material he cited, but I honestly thought he had mentioned that before.

Whatever the case, I would like to see this thread return to the subject matter and forego this unnecessary point of contention.

Fernando, again, wonderful example!!!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

It can not be questioned that the Kastane was born in Ceylon … and not result of a ‘joint venture’.
The probabilities that it had western influences along time, namely Portuguese, it could only be in the hilt, namely the lower recurved quillons... the ricasso a giveaway.
The blade in itself would never be Portuguese, simply because they were not blade makers. Actually the Kastane blades seen out there are so varied that i have already seen one made in brass.
Assuming that Portuguese sword designs were common to other Peoples … Spanish, Venetians and so, we may view these probable influences, for the matter, as being Portuguese, because they were indeed the first to actually reside and mix cultures with the locals.
But obviously the admissible influence of Portuguese, for one, is a hypothesis that would be easily knocked down by evidential appearance of the missing link: example/s of Kastane prior to this period ... no matter how different or of how many different forms they timely were.
Based on this eternal fait divers and talking about (Portuguese) influences, i feel entitled to upload here a hybrid that i have pictured in one of my library books, which belongs in the collection of its author, titled HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, by Rainer Daehnhardt, whom owns one of the largest collections of weapons and documentation covering, among other, the Portuguese discoveries period.

.

Salaams Fernando, Thank you for your post which includes the fascinating picture from your library of the Kastane influenced sword. I assume this example to have been a back fed influence as the Portuguese were withdrawing from the Indian Ocean? It is an early example of a Kastane influenced hilt. Very interesting.

Whilst you state that the origin of the hilt cannot be questioned; that is certainly not how it was originally on this or any other thread.. and since the same sort of decoration appeared on gunpowder weapons of the combined workshops of Portuguese and Sri Lankan craftsmen I am amazed at your revelation... and since you supplied the artwork showing the similar decoration ..even more amazing. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=3&pp=30 at #66

Whilst the Portuguese were the first Europeans to "mix cultures" with the Sri Lankans they were not the first culture ... You omit the Moors..Not only were they hundreds of years before the Portuguese but they were the Mercantile Marine... of Sri Lanka. It is to them that the transition of basic blade form may be attributed. Personally I don't think the Quillons are solely attributable (many people do and that is accepted) but viewing the Vajra I see that as being perhaps the dominant influence.

To what period do you place the appearance of a brass blade?... It is known that cheap non Sri Lankan blades appeared in brass as belly dancer items often with a reversed hilt... in the 19th C.

You place Portugal very highly in the definitions concerning the Kastane yet only at post 80 have you entered your input, though, it is well recieved.... but by-the-way in terms of repetition was not your only other post here on the Mudaliers essentially repetition of a previous one ... by myself; see #2. What I mean is that in generating the discussion and in threads that are very long...understandably repetition happens...though they are not designed towards any individual but in bringing the hundreds of other interested members into focus and updated with the subject.

It was partly because of this that we have now this separate thread on Kastane. Hugely successful !!....leaving the older thread to be developed along the lines of other Sri Lankan weapons. The other support thread on VOC is of course another excellent main artery thread concerning Sri Lanka.

Those few members who were so vociferous in condemning the Kastanes virtually solo appearance on the old thread will no doubt be building up that thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...&page=10&pp=30, no?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

... Which certainly have a value ratio far greater than countless perorations which, although containing some peripheral (but not intrinsic) info, make us ponder on their immense space occupied in the archives versus their juice, after squeezing them.
It is obvious that despite Jim’s industrious initiative to transfer this theme to a new thread under a multiple (triple) range of attributions, the nuclear point remains the same: the origin, date and outer influences in the Kastane. However it is not the hammering on the same nail head, time and time without count, that will bring light to the subject. No one forgets that certain approaches were repeated a zillion times … sometimes with the very same wording.
Resuming that, taking in consideration the recurrent (massacred) pre and post Portuguese ‘key’ to the matter ...
It can not be questioned that the Kastane was born in Ceylon … and not result of a ‘joint venture’.
The probabilities that it had western influences along time, namely Portuguese, it could only be in the hilt, namely the lower recurved quillons... the ricasso a giveaway.
The blade in itself would never be Portuguese, simply because they were not blade makers. Actually the Kastane blades seen out there are so varied that i have already seen one made in brass.
Assuming that Portuguese sword designs were common to other Peoples … Spanish, Venetians and so, we may view these probable influences, for the matter, as being Portuguese, because they were indeed the first to actually reside and mix cultures with the locals.
But obviously the admissible influence of Portuguese, for one, is a hypothesis that would be easily knocked down by evidential appearance of the missing link: example/s of Kastane prior to this period ... no matter how different or of how many different forms they timely were.
Based on this eternal fait divers and talking about (Portuguese) influences, i feel entitled to upload here a hybrid that i have pictured in one of my library books, which belongs in the collection of its author, titled HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, by Rainer Daehnhardt, whom owns one of the largest collections of weapons and documentation covering, among other, the Portuguese discoveries period.

.

Salaams Fernando, Your post at #80.

I have to point out the nature of this sword which has nothing to do with Sri Lankan weapons since it is the preferred design having a lions head of the kings of such tribes in West Africa ~ Benin and Dahomey regions.

The author of the sword write up and picture(Rainer Daehnhardt) forces the description in such a way as to be Certain that this weapon sailed with the Portuguese to the far flung corners of the Indian Ocean where it is imagined it took on the mantle ...or hilt... of the Kastane...or that it in any way was influenced by that weapon. I would suggest that "It most Certainly did not". See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post220003

I further cast doubt upon the claim that this is a Christian cross. Again the reference above refers. It is more likely to be Voodoo inspired.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The Kastane story may continue ad infinitum to develop and based on the excellent material unearthed by Forum so far.. For me, however, the culminating note is unveiled by Wikepedia the famous on line encyclopedia which states ~

The Kastane.

Quote"The Kastane is a short traditional ceremonial/decorative single-edged sword of Sri Lanka. Kastanes often have elaborate hilts, especially shaped and described as a rich mythical style inherited from Buddhism and Hinduism and in blending a variety of Deities including Makara, Lions, Kirtimukha, Serapendiya, Nagas, crocodile/human monsters and other dragon and gargoyle like effigies. Some are emitted onto the hand guard and cross guard with Vajra style pseudo-quillons whose finials are also decorated by minor monsters and a rain-guard decorated by the Makara or Serapendiya Peacock tail or fish scales which occasionally flows over and onto the blade at the throat. The Scabbard is occasionally seen with a miniature beasts head at the Chape also emitting a Deity or cloud pattern. Sometimes a small human face decorates the hand-guard which is a half human/half crocodile monster.

The main aspect of Kastane Hilts shows the central Deity accompanied by supporting minor Deity forms and the peculiar guard arrangement incorporating Buddhist style Vajra quillons, cross and hand guards and decorated handguard with further embelishment often spilling over onto the blades throat. In approaching a description authors should observe each Kastane separately since no two are identical and the main Hilt theme thus could be either of the variant Deities Lion or Makara/ Serapendiya etc. and since artist and artisan may well have applied a broad ranging interpretation of the form.

In 1807 it is recorded that the sword was an indicator of Official Rank so that the more senior persons would wear a more lavishly adorned weapon etc...and that this was also the intent though perhaps to a lesser degree in the Portuguese and Dutch periods.

They may first have arisen in the Kandyan Kingdom (15/16th century ?), perhaps inspired by European swords brought by the Portuguese period in Ceylon or in fact imported by the great Sri Lankan sea traders ... The Moors....The basic form being lavishly adorned so much so that it is almost impossible to designate a base pattern though North Italian or Venetian seems plausible. The hilt resembles South Indian weapon designs. The blade comes in a variety of sizes and it can be either straight or slightly curved. They are usually single-edged and most frequently are made in Europe(Solingen). None of the blades bear either Portuguese marks or English East India Company trademarks (EIC), however, there are many examples of Dutch influence with blades marked VOC. The single part of the sword that shares the similar characteristics is the hilt. It has two or four quillons. In the 4-quillon version the smaller two quillons are swept downwards toward the tip of the blade. In fact it is arguable if these are Quillons since they are mirror images of the Vajra projections on the Buddhist religious axe and perhaps serve no defensive purpose.

The pommel and the quillons are very beautiful as each of them ends with a carved Deity's head. The hilts are often encrusted with gemstones as in the eyes of Ruby stones and inlaid with silver or made entirely of silver or gold. The scabbards of the Kastane swords are made of wood or rhino horn and are decorated with brass, silver and/or gold. It is a testament to the skill of the traditional craftsmen operating in Sri Lankas ancient Royal Sword Workshops".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Forgive me for mentioning this Ibrahiim…but isn't this Wikipedia entry written by YOURSELF? If so how can it unveil to you a culminating note in your own research?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me for mentioning this Ibrahiim…but isn't this Wikipedia entry written by YOURSELF? If so how can it unveil to you a culminating note in your own research?

Salaams David... In fact, no, it is not all my work though of course I am a contributor and why should I not be..and you already know this so why are you questioning in such a way? Indeed you pointed to the fact a month or two ago... though I couldnt understand why your tone was unsupportive then and I am baffled by it now... Wikepedia is the world wide webs encyclopedia... not mine... I just contribute freely. I find it extremely useful and since it is continually updated ..very current and accurate. It does, in fact, do exactly as I have penned ~ do you not agree?

I add that since my involvement as a contributor on Forum to this subject that the Wikepedia entry has been considerably and accurately updated with the latest current information researched by me. It stands therefor as a pinnacle of finely tuned detail in parallel with the latest doctrine on the subject...

Surely you would be delighted with that..from the Forum viewpoint?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Wikipedia is what it is. It is neither good or bad, accurate or incorrect. It is only as good as the information presented and the reference material used to back up that information. It is regulated by its users so an entity really has absolutely no academic integrity beyond its own bibliography, which isn't to say that there are not some very well researched and documented Wikipedia entries. The Kastane entry, i am afraid, is not one of them. It is hardly the "pinnacle of finely tuned detail" that you would make it out to be. This is not because the information is necessarily wrong, though so of it might be, but because the entry has no footnotes or academically reliable references to follow through on. All that are provided at the bottom of the page are a group of links to images on the Oriental Arms page and other sales sites, a youtube video of a kastane on the Antiques Roadshow (and i can assure you that these guys notoriously get their info on swords from these regions wrong) and an article on the use of the kastane as a belly dancing sword written by a guy who was banned from this site long ago. So my complaint here Ibrahiim is that it is rather self-serving for you to present the info on this page as being some kind of "unveiled culminating note" when it is mostly written by you without much academic backing. This has been a wonderful and no doubt useful exercise in speculation and conjecture so far. Don't get me wrong, i am not being sarcastic when i call it useful as i believe that speculation is a very useful tool in the process of discover, and we have certainly seen and read a lot of pertinent material in these many threads on the subject. But until we can nail some of our speculative thinking down to actual fact i don't think we have anything to congratulate ourselves over.
By the way, since you are so keen on fine tuning your Wikipedia page on the subject, you might, as i previously suggested, want to reconsider the use of the term "Deity hilt". The lion, makara, serapendiya or whatever mythical beasts we wish to believe are represented on these swords are not, AFAIK, considered to be "deities" per se. Many Hindu deities do in fact incorporate various animal features in their depiction (Ganesha, Hanuman, etc.), but these mythical beasts are only associated with specific deities (i.e. a makara is often associated as the vehicle for the river goddess Ganga and the sea god Varuna) but are not seen as deities themselves.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David...The lion, makara, serapendiya or whatever mythical beasts we wish to believe are represented on these swords are not, AFAIK, considered to be "deities" per se. Many Hindu deities do in fact incorporate various animal features in their depiction (Ganesha, Hanuman, etc.), but these mythical beasts are only associated with specific deities (i.e. a makara is often associated as the vehicle for the river goddess Ganga and the sea god Varuna) but are not seen as deities themselves.[/QUOTE]


Salaams David. I believe that they are in fact Deities and that you have mixed them up with the religious Deities of India. The Buddhist/Hindu mixture in Sri Lanka is slightly different. The Kastane hilt is filled with Deities. One of the main Deities is the Makara not only associated with one aspect but across the whole spectrum ... On water spouts ...supporting doorways...associated with the Kurtimukta and minor humano crocodile form, On Jewellery, Door knockers, Weapon adornment, artwork, Gunpowder containers, tobacco pipes etc.

Where the main feature appears lion like ... it too has a mythical story behind it. The point about myth and legend coupled with the Kastane is not so much centred around whether XYZ is a Deity but whether these forms were introduced at an earlier stage than European intervention in the Indian Ocean...Naturally with so few early examples it should not try the brain cells over much to realise that certain logical appreciations are needed to ascertain what may have taken place...

Nobody is trying to slam-dunk the Kastane problem and I disagree entirely that anyone would have left the discussion because of some disagreement... Is that not the basis upon which Forum feeds... I disagree... I put in the evidence... Member X disagrees and counters with his/her proof... A consensus is then arrived at and discussed... or arrives in the vicinity of the plausible truth. Of course where people cant take the heat... they get out of the kitchen... Whereas that ought not to happen it is always sad... but anyway they can just as easily rejoin the discussion when they are ready..

Comments are always welcome provided they are constructive no?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.