Old keris Iron Vs modern keris

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 07:01 PM

One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.

Pusaka · 12th November 2005, 07:55 PM

Personally anything 100 years old or less is modern but I know this will be different for each person.

Can someone please explain what Pamor Sanak, Pamor Luwu and Keleng are.
Also I remember reading somewhere that old empus used to use 7 metals to construct a blade, has anyone else heard this?

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 08:20 PM

Hi Pusaka. To the best of my knowledge (hopeful more knowledgeable minds will correct me if i am wrong) Pamor Sanak has no nickelous material in it so that when the blade is stained by arsenic treatment there is very little contrast in the pattern. Sometimes there will be slight contrasts due to the different types of iron used. While i am sure you will find that old empus may have at times used 7 metals to form a keris i don't believe this could ever be counted as a rule and you will find slightly different processes and techniques used by different empus throughout time. Pamor Luwu refers to pamor material collected on Sulawesi (Celebes). This was once a very popular source for nickelous pamor. I don't think there was ever a natural source for nickelous pamor in Jawa before the Prambanan meteorite fall in the late 18th century. That material was considered quite special and reserved most for court pieces. I don't have reference books available, but if memory serves Pamor Luwu had about a 4% nickel content while the Pamor Prambanan was up towards 9%, producing a higher contrast when stained. I am not familar with Pamor Keleng, but perhaps others have heard of it.
By your own standard the keris you posted in before and after poses probably should not be considered modern.

Pusaka · 12th November 2005, 08:31 PM

As far as I know Keleng is a pure black keris with no pamor but not sure

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 08:43 PM

I own a very old keris kebo lajer (16thC) that is all black with the pamor pattern of kul buntet at it's base. It was discribed to me as pamor sanak by someone with much greater knowledge than me. Perhaps Keleng refers to a keris that has no pattern as well as no nickelous material.

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 08:59 PM

I had a moment to check some books and according to Frey, Pamor Luwu was measured some time back at 0.4% nickel, not 4%. Just a bit lower. Sorry.

marto suwignyo · 12th November 2005, 10:34 PM

Regarding the questions raised by Mr. Pusaka.

Sharpness:- this a product of mechanical process ( sharpening on a stone) and blade geometry ( the angle formed by the two blade sides meeting at the edge) as well as the material use to make the blade. In old keris the blade very thin , usually, and also the edge usually not even which give serrated effect. Result is a blade that will cut skin easy but if this blade tested for cutting on rope or thin paper you will find that it not really sharp at all. What you have is perception that blade is sharp.
Keris that have been made as work of art or for purpose of dress often have not been heat treat and also not sharpen. Why should a maker risk the loss of many hours work which can occur if an unseen weld fault exists in the blade and it only become obvious when the blade is heat treat?Why should a blade that will not be used as a weapon be given a sharp edge?
Although keris used as a thrust weapon many keris made as weapon did have a sharpened edge.
The heat treat on any keris blade is not for the full length of the keris blade. On a Jawa blade it usually go to the end of the sogokan. On Bugis and Malay blades it sometimes go only to halfway up the blade or less.

Iron and steel:- old keris blades used iron for the outside layers of the blade; more recent keris blades often use mild steel for the outside layers of the keris blade. Iron does not have carbon and will resist rust better than steel. Mild steel only has low carbon content but will rust more easy than iron, especially if it is heat treat.The very oldest iron will be white and shiny if it file flat and polish. Take old iron and new steel, polish both and they will look similar.
The grainy or fibrous nature of some types of old iron make a very rough surface especially if the blade been cleaned many times. Iron like this has open grain structure so it easy for substance applied to blade to penetrate below outer surface of the iron. Warangan will penetrate a little and give deeper etch, oil will also penetrate and sometime after old blade cleaned you can still smell the oil in the blade. Actually iron like this not good iron because it shows that the maker of the blade did not wash the iron of impurity before using it to make the keris. Or at least he did not wash it enough.Mild steel is produce in factory with modern perfection and is very dense with tight grain structure.With repeated fold and weld even iron that start as very poor quality can be make dense and smooth and look almost like modern mild steel when it polish and stain.
All the sources of old iron use in making keris are not known but in Jawa traditional names are given to many kinds of iron and these names tell us that the iron from many different sources. Probably some iron smelted locally, some come into Jawa by trade. Keris have been found with blade made of wootz . In some 19 century and early 20 century books European writers say iron for keris is taken from Chinese tools. I think it will be safe to say that keris makers in the past will have act like smiths anywhere and use whatever iron they could get their hand on and most often not know where the original iron come from.

Pamor:- the word "sanak" mean "relation" or "relative" so if we say "pamor sanak" we mean the pamor material all related and not mixed with material that not iron. The word "pamor" mean "blend" or "mix". So pamor sanak make from all iron, just different kind of iron some white iron, some dark iron. Pamor luwu make from material from Luwu in Sulawesi like Mr. Nechesh already say. Pamor keleng really not quite right. The word "keleng" mean "black". Really is no pamor keleng, but is Mpu Keleng who tradition tell us from Pajajaran.Also is kelengan iron . This iron very black and have a very rough open grain . It is not good iron. Also in Malaysia people call a black keris, " keris kelengan ", but in Jawa we call keris like this "pangawak waja".

Empu:- I do not know any empu who still make keris. In modern time in Jawa was Empu Suparman(alm), Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. Empu Suparman pass away in 1995, Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo retire already some years, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo many people say can no longer work. There is story about somebody from Madura who become empu for Kraton Surakarta. Perhaps this only a story and not real.Some modern makers of keris from Madura and Jawa Timur make very, very good keris, but really these people are not empu. There are modern makers who still make keris with use traditional method, but if we want blade make with traditional method the cost many times the cost of blade make with modern method, and the blade make with modern method and blade make with traditional method really do not look so different when finished. To make a keris blade by traditional method take a very lot of time. Modern method is more quick. But if both blades finished, both look the same, if the skill level of both makers similar.

simatua · 13th November 2005, 10:29 AM

In my opinion the keris has developed itself from a waepon into a more religeus and status symbol.

from this perspective You can say that the for the more older kerises the main goal is -like all other waepons (example Swords from India)-, is to make a light, strong ( not break very easy) and edged knife.
The harder the knife ...the more sharper you can make it, but will break more easy, the more flexible cannot break easy, but cannot be sharpened as wanted. A weaponsmid, like an empu try to get the best from both.
Study material about wootz/damescener steel in this forum and Pauls keris place can help a lot of our keris lovers.

How to achieve?...Not only the used materials,and the mixture but also the procedure will influence the aspects as hardness, rusting, surface etc.
The difference between a old and modern keris lies in more than one aspect.
And i think the commercial factors make the different
1. time ( the more you make the more you earn..)
2. costs !! like amount of coal used, or use diffrent kind of fire witch will be influence the the contents of the iron.
3. The pamor patern is more importent than the weapon itself, Is that why we see more more and fancy pamors?

Kiai Carita · 14th November 2005, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.

Nechesh you made an interesting statement here...may I ask why you think WWII is significant in kerisology? .... and thank you Marto Suwignyo for the further elaboration of the proces of making keris.

Thank you
KC

nechesh · 14th November 2005, 12:49 PM

Well Kiai, in many ways it is a somewhat arbitrary dating on my part. But it is my understanding however that in Bali, for instance, there was not much serious keris making after that war. I would imagine that WWII had a great impact on the region as a whole as well. Though the Puputans definitely signaled an end of an era in Bali at the beginning of the century it is my understanding that a certain amount of cultural rebounding was beginning to take place up until WWII. Whether this applied to the rest of Indonesia i am unsure, but i would think that a world war in your back yard could put quite a damper on things.

Pusaka · 14th November 2005, 07:11 PM

In modern times which keris workers are able to produce a keris using meteorite Iron? I know it is difficult so most keris workers dont have this skill but which ones have.

Kiai Carita · 14th November 2005, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

In modern times which keris workers are able to produce a keris using meteorite Iron? I know it is difficult so most keris workers dont have this skill but which ones have.

Pusaka, up till WWII people still sold meteorite in the markets of the cities. All keris craftsmen would be able to make keris using meteorite. Making a keris is difficult and even in the modern times most of the technical, material, aspects of keris making are the same as the way the ancient Mpu used to work, the difference being mosty in the spiritual work. I suggest go to Aeng Tong Tong and you will be able to see a village full of keris makers.

Mans, who posts on this forum regularly goes there and knows many of these craftsmen. Some consistently produce good work and do not cut corners and live straight lives and although they are not recognized as Mpu they argueably could be called Mpu just for their service of keeping quality keris making skills alive. The Solo art academy also has people who have interest in making keris. The problem is making keris is a long process and the market is small. You can buy a regular quality old keris for less than the price of a new well made one. Alot of people prefer the old because they think the old has more 'spiritual' powers.

Traditionally you if you go to an Mpu and ask for a keris to be made for you would be asked many things to determine what shape and pamor pattern would be beneficial for you, and when the making should proceed and end, and so on. You could collect meteorite from e-bay and forge it and hammer it clean of impurities...according to Harsrinuksmo's Ensiklopedi Keris, you need between 300-400 grammes of this stuff to make a keris. Then you choose what iron (around 12 - 18 kg depending on the shape of the blade, wavy or straight) and the steel for the centre and sharp edge (around 600 grammes).

As long as you chose a pamor pattern that is categorized as pamor mlumah (lying on it's back) then the difficulties are not that high. If you want a fancy pamor miring (lying on it's side) then it is much more difficult to execute using hammer welding.

By the way, I notice you are cut-and-pasting posts and photos from members of this forum and using the images and member's words in discussion on the martialartsplanet silat forum withough mentioning the source. Is it OK to do this? I am sure there are many keris enthusiasts through silat there that would benefit from joining this knowledgable forum.

Warm salaams to all,
KC

Rick · 14th November 2005, 10:36 PM

I believe all posts on this forum are considered as copyrighted by their individual authors . Permission from each author of a post may need to be secured .

Hopefully Mark or Andrew can address this issue in more detail .

In the meantime Pusaka cease and desist from doing this .
I'll be monitoring the other forum .

Mark · 14th November 2005, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I believe all posts on this forum are considered as copyrighted by their individual authors . Permission from each author of a post may need to be secured .

Hopefully Mark or Andrew can address this in more detail .

First, this is me saying this as an individual, not as a representative of this forum or its Staff.

It is correct that ownership of the copyright is with the poster/writer. Period. In most cases permission is required for use. On the other hand, there is something called "fair use," which does not require permission, but should include attribution of the source. Plus, its plagarism to try and pass off others' words as your own (an academic no-no, to be sure).

Bottom line -- no one is likely to get sued over it, but in my personal opinion its a pretty uncool thing to do on these kinds of forums.

Now, putting my Moderator hat back on ... let's leave the copyright discussion right here and not start a debate, or heaven forbid a flame war, over the issue (either generally or with regard to this specific case).

Mark

marto suwignyo · 14th November 2005, 11:02 PM

Maybe all keris craftsmen can use meteor material to make keris if they know how to use meteor material.

The truth is that during the last 50 years at least only one keris maker known to use meteor material:- Empu Djeno Harumbrojo.

One other keris maker in Solo make two keris with using pamor material from meteor but that Solo keris maker do not prepare the meteor to be able to use. Somebody not from Indonesia prepare the meteor and give to the Solo keris maker to use for pamor material.

Meteor can be weld if wrap in iron and then weld and wash, but technology with technique that use in Jawa can not make pure meteor pamor material. To make pure pamor material the difficulties very high if the technology to use is the traditional technology of Jawa.

Pusaka · 14th November 2005, 11:47 PM

Empu Djeno Harumbrojo is the only person left in Indonesia who can make a meteorite keris ? Im sure that cant be correct, can it??

13th November 2005, 10:29 AM	#8
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	back to basic In my opinion the keris has developed itself from a waepon into a more religeus and status symbol. from this perspective You can say that the for the more older kerises the main goal is -like all other waepons (example Swords from India)-, is to make a light, strong ( not break very easy) and edged knife. The harder the knife ...the more sharper you can make it, but will break more easy, the more flexible cannot break easy, but cannot be sharpened as wanted. A weaponsmid, like an empu try to get the best from both. Study material about wootz/damescener steel in this forum and Pauls keris place can help a lot of our keris lovers. How to achieve?...Not only the used materials,and the mixture but also the procedure will influence the aspects as hardness, rusting, surface etc. The difference between a old and modern keris lies in more than one aspect. And i think the commercial factors make the different 1. time ( the more you make the more you earn..) 2. costs !! like amount of coal used, or use diffrent kind of fire witch will be influence the the contents of the iron. 3. The pamor patern is more importent than the weapon itself, Is that why we see more more and fancy pamors?

14th November 2005, 10:36 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Copyright I believe all posts on this forum are considered as copyrighted by their individual authors . Permission from each author of a post may need to be secured . Hopefully Mark or Andrew can address this issue in more detail . In the meantime Pusaka cease and desist from doing this . I'll be monitoring the other forum . Last edited by Rick; 14th November 2005 at 10:51 PM.

14th November 2005, 11:02 PM	#15
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Maybe all keris craftsmen can use meteor material to make keris if they know how to use meteor material. The truth is that during the last 50 years at least only one keris maker known to use meteor material:- Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. One other keris maker in Solo make two keris with using pamor material from meteor but that Solo keris maker do not prepare the meteor to be able to use. Somebody not from Indonesia prepare the meteor and give to the Solo keris maker to use for pamor material. Meteor can be weld if wrap in iron and then weld and wash, but technology with technique that use in Jawa can not make pure meteor pamor material. To make pure pamor material the difficulties very high if the technology to use is the traditional technology of Jawa. Last edited by marto suwignyo; 15th November 2005 at 12:07 AM.

12th November 2005, 07:01 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.

12th November 2005, 07:55 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Personally anything 100 years old or less is modern but I know this will be different for each person. Can someone please explain what Pamor Sanak, Pamor Luwu and Keleng are. Also I remember reading somewhere that old empus used to use 7 metals to construct a blade, has anyone else heard this?

12th November 2005, 08:20 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Pusaka. To the best of my knowledge (hopeful more knowledgeable minds will correct me if i am wrong) Pamor Sanak has no nickelous material in it so that when the blade is stained by arsenic treatment there is very little contrast in the pattern. Sometimes there will be slight contrasts due to the different types of iron used. While i am sure you will find that old empus may have at times used 7 metals to form a keris i don't believe this could ever be counted as a rule and you will find slightly different processes and techniques used by different empus throughout time. Pamor Luwu refers to pamor material collected on Sulawesi (Celebes). This was once a very popular source for nickelous pamor. I don't think there was ever a natural source for nickelous pamor in Jawa before the Prambanan meteorite fall in the late 18th century. That material was considered quite special and reserved most for court pieces. I don't have reference books available, but if memory serves Pamor Luwu had about a 4% nickel content while the Pamor Prambanan was up towards 9%, producing a higher contrast when stained. I am not familar with Pamor Keleng, but perhaps others have heard of it. By your own standard the keris you posted in before and after poses probably should not be considered modern.

12th November 2005, 08:31 PM	#4
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	As far as I know Keleng is a pure black keris with no pamor but not sure

12th November 2005, 08:43 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I own a very old keris kebo lajer (16thC) that is all black with the pamor pattern of kul buntet at it's base. It was discribed to me as pamor sanak by someone with much greater knowledge than me. Perhaps Keleng refers to a keris that has no pattern as well as no nickelous material.

12th November 2005, 08:59 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I had a moment to check some books and according to Frey, Pamor Luwu was measured some time back at 0.4% nickel, not 4%. Just a bit lower. Sorry.

12th November 2005, 10:34 PM	#7
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Regarding the questions raised by Mr. Pusaka. Sharpness:- this a product of mechanical process ( sharpening on a stone) and blade geometry ( the angle formed by the two blade sides meeting at the edge) as well as the material use to make the blade. In old keris the blade very thin , usually, and also the edge usually not even which give serrated effect. Result is a blade that will cut skin easy but if this blade tested for cutting on rope or thin paper you will find that it not really sharp at all. What you have is perception that blade is sharp. Keris that have been made as work of art or for purpose of dress often have not been heat treat and also not sharpen. Why should a maker risk the loss of many hours work which can occur if an unseen weld fault exists in the blade and it only become obvious when the blade is heat treat?Why should a blade that will not be used as a weapon be given a sharp edge? Although keris used as a thrust weapon many keris made as weapon did have a sharpened edge. The heat treat on any keris blade is not for the full length of the keris blade. On a Jawa blade it usually go to the end of the sogokan. On Bugis and Malay blades it sometimes go only to halfway up the blade or less. Iron and steel:- old keris blades used iron for the outside layers of the blade; more recent keris blades often use mild steel for the outside layers of the keris blade. Iron does not have carbon and will resist rust better than steel. Mild steel only has low carbon content but will rust more easy than iron, especially if it is heat treat.The very oldest iron will be white and shiny if it file flat and polish. Take old iron and new steel, polish both and they will look similar. The grainy or fibrous nature of some types of old iron make a very rough surface especially if the blade been cleaned many times. Iron like this has open grain structure so it easy for substance applied to blade to penetrate below outer surface of the iron. Warangan will penetrate a little and give deeper etch, oil will also penetrate and sometime after old blade cleaned you can still smell the oil in the blade. Actually iron like this not good iron because it shows that the maker of the blade did not wash the iron of impurity before using it to make the keris. Or at least he did not wash it enough.Mild steel is produce in factory with modern perfection and is very dense with tight grain structure.With repeated fold and weld even iron that start as very poor quality can be make dense and smooth and look almost like modern mild steel when it polish and stain. All the sources of old iron use in making keris are not known but in Jawa traditional names are given to many kinds of iron and these names tell us that the iron from many different sources. Probably some iron smelted locally, some come into Jawa by trade. Keris have been found with blade made of wootz . In some 19 century and early 20 century books European writers say iron for keris is taken from Chinese tools. I think it will be safe to say that keris makers in the past will have act like smiths anywhere and use whatever iron they could get their hand on and most often not know where the original iron come from. Pamor:- the word "sanak" mean "relation" or "relative" so if we say "pamor sanak" we mean the pamor material all related and not mixed with material that not iron. The word "pamor" mean "blend" or "mix". So pamor sanak make from all iron, just different kind of iron some white iron, some dark iron. Pamor luwu make from material from Luwu in Sulawesi like Mr. Nechesh already say. Pamor keleng really not quite right. The word "keleng" mean "black". Really is no pamor keleng, but is Mpu Keleng who tradition tell us from Pajajaran.Also is kelengan iron . This iron very black and have a very rough open grain . It is not good iron. Also in Malaysia people call a black keris, " keris kelengan ", but in Jawa we call keris like this "pangawak waja". Empu:- I do not know any empu who still make keris. In modern time in Jawa was Empu Suparman(alm), Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. Empu Suparman pass away in 1995, Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo retire already some years, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo many people say can no longer work. There is story about somebody from Madura who become empu for Kraton Surakarta. Perhaps this only a story and not real.Some modern makers of keris from Madura and Jawa Timur make very, very good keris, but really these people are not empu. There are modern makers who still make keris with use traditional method, but if we want blade make with traditional method the cost many times the cost of blade make with modern method, and the blade make with modern method and blade make with traditional method really do not look so different when finished. To make a keris blade by traditional method take a very lot of time. Modern method is more quick. But if both blades finished, both look the same, if the skill level of both makers similar.

14th November 2005, 12:49 PM	#10
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Kiai, in many ways it is a somewhat arbitrary dating on my part. But it is my understanding however that in Bali, for instance, there was not much serious keris making after that war. I would imagine that WWII had a great impact on the region as a whole as well. Though the Puputans definitely signaled an end of an era in Bali at the beginning of the century it is my understanding that a certain amount of cultural rebounding was beginning to take place up until WWII. Whether this applied to the rest of Indonesia i am unsure, but i would think that a world war in your back yard could put quite a damper on things.

14th November 2005, 07:11 PM	#11
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	In modern times which keris workers are able to produce a keris using meteorite Iron? I know it is difficult so most keris workers dont have this skill but which ones have.

14th November 2005, 11:47 PM	#16
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Empu Djeno Harumbrojo is the only person left in Indonesia who can make a meteorite keris ? Im sure that cant be correct, can it??