Tulwar stamped blade mark question

Matt Easton · 20th February 2014, 03:32 PM

An official rule? I'm not really asking specifically about this tulwar, but rather tulwars in general, but anyway, here is the rest of that sword

Jens Nordlunde · 20th February 2014, 04:03 PM

Thank you

.
I have heard about the 'killing marks', but I more than doubt it. If you read the old Indian history, about all the battles and about how many people were killed, a lot of the swords would have nothing but killing marks all over.
Many different markings are used on Indian weapons, some are no doubt smith markings, others, like some of the dot marks. are from the Bikaner armoury. A lot of the marks are copies of European markings, like the 'eyelashes' copying Genovean blade marks, and the Orb and cross, the EIC stamp and a lot of others. To prove to a potential buyer that the blade was 'European' and of a good quality.
Jens

Matt Easton · 20th February 2014, 04:37 PM

Thanks.
Yes I have doubted the 'killing marks' explanation for those crosses as well. Though if they aren't that, I wonder what they are?
I have come across Indo-Persian sources talking about testing swords by cutting clay, wet felt and other things. I rather wonder if they are a bit like 'proved' stamps on European swords - to show the number of *somethings* that they have cut through in testing (like Japanese swords also). It seems more plausible than the 'killing marks' theory

.
I'm also interested to know where I can find anything more about Indian sword maker stamps. I have a British officer's sword with an Indian-made blade, dating to around 1810-1820 according to the style of the hilt, that has what I believed to be an Indian maker's mark under one of the langets.

Regards,
Matt

Jens Nordlunde · 20th February 2014, 05:06 PM

Hi Matt,
I dont know what the crosses are supposed to represent, maybe copies from some European manufactor - I really dont know. I too have blades with crosses.
In one of my many books I read, that the young Hindus trained their cutting skill on a block of wett clay, so that they would not blamish their family, when they had to cut the head of an ox to sacrifice it.
I do think, but I dont know, if you could test a blade by cutting into a clay block, but I would rather think you could train you blowing force by doing so. I think, testing a blade would be something quite different, that hacking in wett clay, you would hack on metal to see if the edge was good, and if the blade breaked.
Jens

archer · 20th February 2014, 08:20 PM

Hi Matt, Here's a link to one discussion about a likely false EIC mark used to Imply East India Co. As a whole most of these marks are noted and discussed, but not much can be garnered from a lot of them, others clearly are Armory markings and numbers. Steve http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tulwar

Matt Easton · 20th February 2014, 08:32 PM

Thanks Steve, I'll go and have a read.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th February 2014, 09:42 PM

Hi Matt,
I have asked Jim to join, as he is a master of the different stamps. I do hope he will join.
Regards
Jens

Matt Easton · 20th February 2014, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Hi Matt, Here's a link to one discussion about a likely false EIC mark used to Imply East India Co. As a whole most of these marks are noted and discussed, but not much can be garnered from a lot of them, others clearly are Armory markings and numbers. Steve http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tulwar

Interesting that - I have seen EIG on firearms:

Though these marks I'm referring to are nothing to do with European or imitation European stamps - as shown above these are quite un-European weird squiggly shapes

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2014, 03:55 AM

Jens, thank you very much !
Matt, its good to see your most interesting post on these marks. As you can see there is a great deal of confusion with the markings on arms in India, first because the East India Co. had its own army independent of the government initially. Prior to the dissolution of the EIC after the Indian Mutiny (1857) there was already a great deal of transition going on.
The quartered or flaunched heart balemarks with VEIC initials were replaced by a rampant lion around 1810.
In the Khyber regions however, the spurious marking of arms with these heart balemarks continued through the rest of the 19th c

With these particular marks in linear row of five, they appear to be native applied copies probably of North Italian marks often termed 'twig' marks associated with a number of makers there. It is presumed that these kinds of groupings of spurious European markings are generally used to suggest the blades are European and therefore of superior quality . These twig marks are often seen on earlier Italian blades which often were used in the khandas (called 'firangi' when so mounted) . In many cases they occur in groupings of three or more, sometimes even several lines of them.

There have long been myths about tallying kills on blades etc but these tales are as far as I have ever found, complete folklore. Actually the only instances I have ever found for such 'scores' are in aviation with the familiar kills on the fuselage of the aircraft. Even the tall tales of the wild west where gunfighters are said to have notched their guns are fabricated. None of the celebrated gunfighters weapons have ever had a single notch in them. It is believed that the myth began with Bat Masterson 'creating' souvenier Colts with notches in the grip .

Returning to EIC, and the triangle stamps etc. I believe these were left mostly inconclusive in the discussion a few years ago, however I believe they were EIG for East India Government probably much later in the Raj. There was no East India Co. after 1858, and though most arms and materials went to India through ISD (India Stores Depot) we know huge volume of materials did not.
It seems quite likely that these often poorly applied stamps with EIG may have been legitimately applied in various supply depots, but as noted that remains unclear.

All best regards,
Jim

20th February 2014, 03:32 PM	#1
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	An official rule? I'm not really asking specifically about this tulwar, but rather tulwars in general, but anyway, here is the rest of that sword Attached Images

20th February 2014, 04:03 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you. I have heard about the 'killing marks', but I more than doubt it. If you read the old Indian history, about all the battles and about how many people were killed, a lot of the swords would have nothing but killing marks all over. Many different markings are used on Indian weapons, some are no doubt smith markings, others, like some of the dot marks. are from the Bikaner armoury. A lot of the marks are copies of European markings, like the 'eyelashes' copying Genovean blade marks, and the Orb and cross, the EIC stamp and a lot of others. To prove to a potential buyer that the blade was 'European' and of a good quality. Jens

20th February 2014, 05:06 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Matt, I dont know what the crosses are supposed to represent, maybe copies from some European manufactor - I really dont know. I too have blades with crosses. In one of my many books I read, that the young Hindus trained their cutting skill on a block of wett clay, so that they would not blamish their family, when they had to cut the head of an ox to sacrifice it. I do think, but I dont know, if you could test a blade by cutting into a clay block, but I would rather think you could train you blowing force by doing so. I think, testing a blade would be something quite different, that hacking in wett clay, you would hack on metal to see if the edge was good, and if the blade breaked. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 20th February 2014 at 06:16 PM.

20th February 2014, 08:20 PM	#5
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	blade markings Hi Matt, Here's a link to one discussion about a likely false EIC mark used to Imply East India Co. As a whole most of these marks are noted and discussed, but not much can be garnered from a lot of them, others clearly are Armory markings and numbers. Steve http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tulwar

20th February 2014, 04:37 PM	#3
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Thanks. Yes I have doubted the 'killing marks' explanation for those crosses as well. Though if they aren't that, I wonder what they are? I have come across Indo-Persian sources talking about testing swords by cutting clay, wet felt and other things. I rather wonder if they are a bit like 'proved' stamps on European swords - to show the number of somethings that they have cut through in testing (like Japanese swords also). It seems more plausible than the 'killing marks' theory . I'm also interested to know where I can find anything more about Indian sword maker stamps. I have a British officer's sword with an Indian-made blade, dating to around 1810-1820 according to the style of the hilt, that has what I believed to be an Indian maker's mark under one of the langets. Regards, Matt

20th February 2014, 08:32 PM	#6
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	Thanks Steve, I'll go and have a read.

20th February 2014, 09:42 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Matt, I have asked Jim to join, as he is a master of the different stamps. I do hope he will join. Regards Jens

21st February 2014, 03:55 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Jens, thank you very much ! Matt, its good to see your most interesting post on these marks. As you can see there is a great deal of confusion with the markings on arms in India, first because the East India Co. had its own army independent of the government initially. Prior to the dissolution of the EIC after the Indian Mutiny (1857) there was already a great deal of transition going on. The quartered or flaunched heart balemarks with VEIC initials were replaced by a rampant lion around 1810. In the Khyber regions however, the spurious marking of arms with these heart balemarks continued through the rest of the 19th c With these particular marks in linear row of five, they appear to be native applied copies probably of North Italian marks often termed 'twig' marks associated with a number of makers there. It is presumed that these kinds of groupings of spurious European markings are generally used to suggest the blades are European and therefore of superior quality . These twig marks are often seen on earlier Italian blades which often were used in the khandas (called 'firangi' when so mounted) . In many cases they occur in groupings of three or more, sometimes even several lines of them. There have long been myths about tallying kills on blades etc but these tales are as far as I have ever found, complete folklore. Actually the only instances I have ever found for such 'scores' are in aviation with the familiar kills on the fuselage of the aircraft. Even the tall tales of the wild west where gunfighters are said to have notched their guns are fabricated. None of the celebrated gunfighters weapons have ever had a single notch in them. It is believed that the myth began with Bat Masterson 'creating' souvenier Colts with notches in the grip . Returning to EIC, and the triangle stamps etc. I believe these were left mostly inconclusive in the discussion a few years ago, however I believe they were EIG for East India Government probably much later in the Raj. There was no East India Co. after 1858, and though most arms and materials went to India through ISD (India Stores Depot) we know huge volume of materials did not. It seems quite likely that these often poorly applied stamps with EIG may have been legitimately applied in various supply depots, but as noted that remains unclear. All best regards, Jim